Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
A mystery in Luke 4:23 - καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς· Πάντως ἐρεῖτέ μοι τὴν παραβολὴν ταύτην· Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· ὅσα ἠκούσαμεν γενόμενα εἰς τὴν Καφαρναοὺμ ποίησον καὶ ὧδε ἐν τῇ πατρίδι σου. Jesus alludes to the short little proverbial saying: Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· as being a widely well-known. The question: what is its source? NA 27 cross references Mt 27:42, which has the people saying to Jesus on the cross: Ἄλλους ἔσωσεν, ἑαυτὸν οὐ δύναται σῶσαι. NA 28 cross references Lk 23:35, which is a parallel to Mt 27:42. I have my hunches, but I wanted to see what this group thought.
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
This really isn't a Greek question.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
Perhaps not in and of itself, but raises an interesting issue of synonymy.Stephen Carlson wrote:This really isn't a Greek question.
Namely that θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal") are closer synonyms than a beginners' word-list's glosses may suggest.
That is probably obvious to others, but - having spent many years memorising alphabetically arranged beginners' word-lists - I hadn't noticed it clearly till now.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
To Stephen Hughes: I had a hunch there might be some type of link between θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal"). Do you or anyone think that Jesus is rebuking them from their failure to regard Him as the great physician by His alluding to such texts as Isaiah 53:5b (LXX)τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν? 1 Peter 2:24 draws a salvific connection to ἰάομαι, notice: ὃς τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν αὐτὸς ἀνήνεγκεν ἐν τῷ σώματι αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον, ἵνα ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἀπογενόμενοι τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ ζήσωμεν, οὗ τῷ μώλωπι ἰάθητε. To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time. 

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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
In a "soft focus" overview of words relating to "healing" yes, those words and others that you have noted are related to each other.mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Hughes: I had a hunch there might be some type of link between θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal"). Do you or anyone think that Jesus is rebuking them from their failure to regard Him as the great physician by His alluding to such texts as Isaiah 53:5b (LXX)τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν? 1 Peter 2:24 draws a salvific connection to ἰάομαι, notice: ὃς τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν αὐτὸς ἀνήνεγκεν ἐν τῷ σώματι αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον, ἵνα ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἀπογενόμενοι τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ ζήσωμεν, οὗ τῷ μώλωπι ἰάθητε.
I see your point about Isaiah / Peter. I know enough Greek - and so do many others on this forum - to be able say that σώζειν, ἰάεθαι and θεραπεύειν could be being used to express similar ideas, but ... I have only done a compulsory one semester course in OT typology, so I'm not really the person to answer your interpretive questions about how one should see the precise relationship between them in these contexts.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
You mean we're not supposed to ask where a quote comes from ????Stephen Carlson wrote:This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time.
Or we're supposed to ask in a different forum ????
C'mon guys - some of you Classicists or Hebraicists, if you know of a probable source for this quote, let us know.
Thanks,
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
Homer (Illiad, XI 833-35) ΙΗΤΡΟΙ... ΤΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΕΝΙ ΚΛΙΣΙΗΣΙΝ ΟΙΟΜΑΙ ΕΛΚΟΣ ΕΧΟΝΤΑ ΧΡΙΖΟΝΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΑΜΥΜΟΝΟΣ ΙΗΤΗΡΟΣ, ΚΕΙΣΑΙ... cf. Euripides (cf. Plutarch) ΑΛΛΩΝ ΙΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΕΛΚΕΣΙΝ ΒΡΥΩΝ. See further J. L. Nolland, “Classical and Rabbinic Parallels to ‘Physician, Heal Yourself’ (Lk iv 23),” NovT 21 (1979):193-209.
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
It's not a question about the Greek.Shirley Rollinson wrote:You mean we're not supposed to ask where a quote comes from ????Stephen Carlson wrote:This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time.
Well, if it is where the historical Jesus got the proverb from (or if he said it), then there's the Crosstalk mailing list.Shirley Rollinson wrote:Or we're supposed to ask in a different forum ????
If it is a question where the Lukan evangelist got the material from, then there is the Synoptic-L mailing list.
Answering the source question involves a lot of historical-critical assumptions that, in the experience of B-Greek, tend to generate vigorous debates that have nothing to do with the meaning of the Greek.
I believe this has just been answered with a cite.Shirley Rollinson wrote:C'mon guys - some of you Classicists or Hebraicists, if you know of a probable source for this quote, let us know.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
I suspect that the origin of the question is in an attempt to find such a quotation in the OT. It would, however, be somewhat foolish to suppose that there were no proverbs in common usage which were not to be found in the OT. There were doubtless many sayings which were used in everyday life which were not found in the OT.
george
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus
gfsomsel
… search for truth, hear truth,
learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
defend the truth till death.
- Jan Hus