John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

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Stephen Carlson
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 17th, 2018, 4:18 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
τὸ περὶ οὗ, simply the subject, ὃ τοῦτό ἐστιν, the predicate, and then "the rest in order."
You keep using the word "simply," but it does not mean what you think it means. See how well it matches Helma Dik's analysis of Greek word order.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
I would have to say that there is nothing here that suggests that "word order" as it has become a discussion in discourse analysis in biblical studies is in view.
The "word order" discussion is also taking place in Classical Studies, under the lead of Helma Dik and others. Unlike Stan Porter's verbal aspect, we're not talking about some quirky grammatical theory by parochial New Testament scholars.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
The only way we really have to determine what the ancients thought of as euphonous is to read what they wrote and attempt to analyze it. Randall, you could well be right, but it would take some doing to prove it.
Like this hasn't been going on for the past twenty years, especially in Classics???

The way I see it, a large part of the effort about word order in biblical studies to get the field to discuss what the classicists are already talking about. Randy is a pioneer in this, hitting the same notes even before Dik. I view the general convergence of their independent lines of research a good sign that there's something to it.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 17th, 2018, 7:03 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 4:18 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
τὸ περὶ οὗ, simply the subject, ὃ τοῦτό ἐστιν, the predicate, and then "the rest in order."
You keep using the word "simply," but it does not mean what you think it means. See how well it matches Helma Dik's analysis of Greek word order.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
I would have to say that there is nothing here that suggests that "word order" as it has become a discussion in discourse analysis in biblical studies is in view.
The "word order" discussion is also taking place in Classical Studies, under the lead of Helma Dik and others. Unlike Stan Porter's verbal aspect, we're not talking about some quirky grammatical theory by parochial New Testament scholars.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 11:11 am
The only way we really have to determine what the ancients thought of as euphonous is to read what they wrote and attempt to analyze it. Randall, you could well be right, but it would take some doing to prove it.
Like this hasn't been going on for the past twenty years, especially in Classics???

The way I see it, a large part of the effort about word order in biblical studies to get the field to discuss what the classicists are already talking about. Randy is a pioneer in this, hitting the same notes even before Dik. I view the general convergence of their independent lines of research a good sign that there's something to it.
Excellent, my curmudgeonliness is finally beginning to pay off, and we've moved a bit past the "I've studied these things for a long time, take my assertions seriously" stage. I've actually been following the discussion more with regard to Latin than with Greek, though I've been aware of some of it. Now, what articles or resources, preferably accessible online would you recommend for further study of this (of course anything by Dik is good, my second favorite classicist after Eleanor Dickey), and what is the best resource overall?
Stephen wrote: quirky grammatical theory by parochial New Testament scholars
I plan to quote that. A lot. I'll give you credit if it's in anything publishable, though... :D
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 17th, 2018, 7:28 pm

I have almost given up on word order as a topic. Been reading mostly outside the NT & LXX since 2000. Don't subscribe to Helma Dik's framework anymore.

Been observing patterns through a different lens. Seems to be a pattern of stacking up elements that would be found at the bottom of the generative[1] parsing tree early in the clause followed by elements that would be found at the top of the parsing tree.

Another way of saying this is the core clause elements such as the verb are postponed where as other arguments are loaded up front. Also hyperbaton is prevalent.

The question of salience is just left aside. Looking for other explanations.

[1] I think generative (standard theory) instinctively because it was they way I belatedly learned to understand english grammar.
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 17th, 2018, 10:19 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 7:03 pm
Now, what articles or resources, preferably accessible online would you recommend for further study of this (of course anything by Dik is good, my second favorite classicist after Eleanor Dickey), and what is the best resource overall?
My recommended resources are here: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2016/04/ ... order.html

Unfortunately, a lot are not online or if online, they are paywalled. You can probably find online versions of the dissertations.
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Barry Hofstetter » September 18th, 2018, 10:57 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 10:19 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 7:03 pm
Now, what articles or resources, preferably accessible online would you recommend for further study of this (of course anything by Dik is good, my second favorite classicist after Eleanor Dickey), and what is the best resource overall?
My recommended resources are here: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2016/04/ ... order.html

Unfortunately, a lot are not online or if online, they are paywalled. You can probably find online versions of the dissertations.
Thanks. I tried finding several of the articles on JSTOR, but for once it let me down. However, a nice summary here which defines some of the basic terminology being used:

http://atticgreek.org/downloads/WordOrder.pdf
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 792
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » September 18th, 2018, 2:12 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 10:57 am
Thanks. I tried finding several of the articles on JSTOR, but for once it let me down.
If you want to see a sample of current "Discourse-Pragmatic" work check out Tom Recht:2015. He reviews the last several decades. A road map of sorts.

Tom Recht, “Verb-Initial Clauses in Ancient Greek Prose: A Discourse-Pragmatic Study” (Ph.D. diss., UCLA, 2015).

PDF available from Berkeley or Stanford.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 18th, 2018, 5:52 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 7:28 pm
I have almost given up on word order as a topic. Been reading mostly outside the NT & LXX since 2000. Don't subscribe to Helma Dik's framework anymore.

Been observing patterns through a different lens. Seems to be a pattern of stacking up elements that would be found at the bottom of the generative[1] parsing tree early in the clause followed by elements that would be found at the top of the parsing tree.

Another way of saying this is the core clause elements such as the verb are postponed where as other arguments are loaded up front. Also hyperbaton is prevalent.

The question of salience is just left aside. Looking for other explanations.

[1] I think generative (standard theory) instinctively because it was they way I belatedly learned to understand english grammar.
It sounds like you’d be more amenable then to the approach that Goldstein took in his 2015 monograph, Classical Greek Syntax.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2727
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
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Re: John 8:25 and the adverbial accusative την αρχην

Post by Stephen Carlson » September 18th, 2018, 5:56 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 18th, 2018, 10:57 am
Stephen Carlson wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 10:19 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
September 17th, 2018, 7:03 pm
Now, what articles or resources, preferably accessible online would you recommend for further study of this (of course anything by Dik is good, my second favorite classicist after Eleanor Dickey), and what is the best resource overall?
My recommended resources are here: http://hypotyposeis.org/weblog/2016/04/ ... order.html

Unfortunately, a lot are not online or if online, they are paywalled. You can probably find online versions of the dissertations.
Thanks. I tried finding several of the articles on JSTOR, but for once it let me down. However, a nice summary here which defines some of the basic terminology being used:

http://atticgreek.org/downloads/WordOrder.pdf
Yes, that summary is quite up-to-date with what I’ve observed is going on in classics.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia

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