Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

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Jonathan Robie
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Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Jonathan Robie »

I was surprised by the word order in Luke 2:48 as I read it during church today. I was reading the Antoniades 1904, and it said this:
καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν ἐξεπλάγησαν, καὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ εἶπε· τέκνον, τί ἐποίησας ἡμῖν οὕτως;
I am used to texts where πρὸς αὐτὸν comes after εἶπεν, like UBS5:
 καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν ἐξεπλάγησαν, καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ, Τέκνον, τί ἐποίησας ἡμῖν οὕτως;
And I can't quite figure out the discourse function of the word order found in RP. After all, she's looking at him when she speaks, why emphasize the fact that it's him that she is speaking to? In other passages where πρὸς αὐτὸν or πρὸς αὐτοὺς occurs before εἶπεν, it often has a sense like "it was to them that he was speaking", as in Mark 12:12:
Καὶ ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν κρατῆσαι, καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν τὸν ὄχλον, ἔγνωσαν γὰρ ὅτι πρὸς αὐτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν
But that's not what's happening here. What is?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Stephen Carlson »

It may not be so much a difference in emphasis but a difference in topic structure.

With the UBS5 text, we have a verb-first clause, which in the context would answer the topic question “Then what happened?” (Well, his mother said to him, “…”).

With the Byz text, the word order suggests that the topic question is “What happened to Jesus?” (Well, his mother told him this, and then he made his risposte.)

It’s fairly subtle and your mileage may vary, but the Byz text seems to me to build up more tension for Jesus’s statement to resolve.
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Carlson wrote: December 26th, 2021, 9:34 pm It may not be so much a difference in emphasis but a difference in topic structure.

With the UBS5 text, we have a verb-first clause, which in the context would answer the topic question “Then what happened?” (Well, his mother said to him, “…”).

With the Byz text, the word order suggests that the topic question is “What happened to Jesus?” (Well, his mother told him this, and then he made his risposte.)

It’s fairly subtle and your mileage may vary, but the Byz text seems to me to build up more tension for Jesus’s statement to resolve.
That makes sense. I like the "what question does this answer" and the term "topic question" for approaching this.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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RandallButh
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by RandallButh »

Jonathan Robie wrote: December 26th, 2021, 6:06 pm . . . Luke 2:48 Antoniades 1904
καὶ ἰδόντες αὐτὸν ἐξεπλάγησαν, καὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ εἶπε· τέκνον, τί ἐποίησας ἡμῖν οὕτως;
. . . After all, she's looking at him when she speaks, why emphasize the fact that it's him that she is speaking to? In other passages where πρὸς αὐτὸν or πρὸς αὐτοὺς occurs before εἶπεν, it often has a sense like "it was to them that he was speaking", as in Mark 12:12:
Καὶ ἐζήτουν αὐτὸν κρατῆσαι, καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν τὸν ὄχλον, ἔγνωσαν γὰρ ὅτι πρὸς αὐτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν
But that's not what's happening here. What is?
First, I think I agree with what Stephen said, however, it may help to look from another angle.
How does one read this on the fly, or at a Tuesday night gathering with the audience sipping their mulled wine?

In Luke 2.48 there are two fronted constituents "to him" and "his mother". These are actually in the most common specialized orders where the first fronted item provides a contextualization (often called topicalization) and the second fronted item provides the marked salient information, the focus, or "emphasis" to use your words. In other words "mother" is the grammatically marked focus, not "him". Fronted structures typically build in a direction from contextualization to focus.
However, Greek allows the opposite order, somewhat rarely. Mark 12:12 shows a fronted Focus (πρὸς αὐτούς probably retaining its high tone as a Focal constituent, followed by a contextualizing "the parable he said" instead of a more expected default order "he said the parable."

In real life these would probably have been distinguished by intonation. Mark 12.12 would have concluded with a non-focal, default accent παραβολὴν [low tone eta, which fits normal accent rules, though possibly even demoting/suppressing the accent on εἶπεν], while Luke 2.48 would have suppressed the natural high tone on αὐτὸν according to normal accent rules, but may have had a slightly elevated high tone on μήτηρ.
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Stephen Carlson »

RandallButh wrote: December 27th, 2021, 9:59 pm However, Greek allows the opposite order, somewhat rarely. Mark 12:12 shows a fronted Focus (πρὸς αὐτούς probably retaining its high tone as a Focal constituent, followed by a contextualizing "the parable he said" instead of a more expected default order "he said the parable."
Lots of good stuff here, I’d like to add to this observation that, in καὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ εἶπε, whether or not the grave accent on αὐτὸν is true or merely orthographic, the first high point of intonation in the clause is on μήτηρ, which is where we would normally look for the focus.
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Jonathan Robie »

RandallButh wrote: December 27th, 2021, 9:59 pm In Luke 2.48 there are two fronted constituents "to him" and "his mother". These are actually in the most common specialized orders where the first fronted item provides a contextualization (often called topicalization) and the second fronted item provides the marked salient information, the focus, or "emphasis" to use your words. In other words "mother" is the grammatically marked focus, not "him". Fronted structures typically build in a direction from contextualization to focus.
OK, in Simon Dik's framework (P1, P2, V, X), I think you are saying this:

P1 (Topic): καὶ πρὸς αὐτὸν
P2 (Focus): ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ
V (Verb): εἶπε·
X: τέκνον, τί ἐποίησας ἡμῖν οὕτως;

And I should have seen that.
RandallButh wrote: December 27th, 2021, 9:59 pmHowever, Greek allows the opposite order, somewhat rarely. Mark 12:12 shows a fronted Focus (πρὸς αὐτούς probably retaining its high tone as a Focal constituent, followed by a contextualizing "the parable he said" instead of a more expected default order "he said the parable."
You and Stephen have a whole lot more experience doing discourse analysis than I do. But is this also a plausible analysis?

P1 (Topic): πρὸς αὐτοὺς
P2 (Focus): τὴν παραβολὴν
V (Verb): εἶπεν

If not, why not?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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RandallButh
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by RandallButh »

Jonathan, I'm not sure what you are saying.

They got angry because they knew that although the story dealt with them it was only a parable and they were not called out to their face?

your question may have illustrated how the label "topic" can mislead people. The "topic" is information marked as more presupposed information, taken for granted, and providing a framework for 'the point', while Focus is a specially marked "main point", marked more salient information.
Look what happens if all the more pre-supposed information is left implicit, and only the focal, salient information is stated (something that we humans are pretty good at [e.g. "Where did you go?" "To the store."]):

They knew that it was THEM,
vs.
They knew that it was the COMPARISON.
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Jonathan Robie »

RandallButh wrote: December 31st, 2021, 1:55 am your question may have illustrated how the label "topic" can mislead people. The "topic" is information marked as more presupposed information, taken for granted, and providing a framework for 'the point', while Focus is a specially marked "main point", marked more salient information.
Look what happens if all the more pre-supposed information is left implicit, and only the focal, salient information is stated (something that we humans are pretty good at [e.g. "Where did you go?" "To the store."]):

They knew that it was THEM,
vs.
They knew that it was the COMPARISON.
This is one of the things I found confusing years back when I was trying to take this approach. At the time, I thought that I was being told to parse things out into P1 P2 V X, using Simon Dik's order, and some sentences didn't seem to fit that. I realized there was a lot more to it, but I didn't get past this obstacle.

I agree that 'context' is a clearer label. I think what you are saying is that I should go ahead and identify P1 and P2, but let the passage itself tell me what is context and what is focus, not rigidly holding to the order I learned? And for this text, you are saying:

P1 (Focus): πρὸς αὐτοὺς
P2 (Context): τὴν παραβολὴν
V (Verb): εἶπεν

But my intuition wants to make the verb part of that, even if the framework does not allow it.

(Focus): πρὸς αὐτοὺς
(Context): τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν

about THEM
he had told the parable

I generally ask questions about the text to discover these things.

πρὸς τίνα εἶπεν τὴν παραβολὴν;
πρὸς αὐτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν.

I imagine I need a bunch of hands-on practice to get good at using the P1 P2 V framework.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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RandallButh
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by RandallButh »

I generally ask questions about the text to discover these things.

πρὸς τίνα εἶπεν τὴν παραβολὴν;
πρὸς αὐτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν.
Your question is good but stops short:

Διὰ τί ἐγράφη τὸ πρὸς αυτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν
αντὶ τοῦ πρὸς αυτοὺς εἶπεν τὴν παραβολὴν;
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Re: Luke 2:48 - Byzantine word order

Post by Jonathan Robie »

RandallButh wrote: December 31st, 2021, 11:00 am
I generally ask questions about the text to discover these things.

πρὸς τίνα εἶπεν τὴν παραβολὴν;
πρὸς αὐτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν.
Your question is good but stops short:

Διὰ τί ἐγράφη τὸ πρὸς αυτοὺς τὴν παραβολὴν εἶπεν
αντὶ τοῦ πρὸς αυτοὺς εἶπεν τὴν παραβολὴν;
The first kind of question is an attempt to answer the question "what question does this sentence answer". The second is actually the kind of question that led me to start this thread. But that question doesn't seem to lead directly to an answer ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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