Iver Larsen wrote:οὐκ οἴδατε ἐν Ἠλίᾳ τί λέγει ἡ γραφή,
So, is the meaning here really "about Elijah"? What about "Don't you know what Scripture says to Elijah?"
Iver Larsen wrote:The only other instance I could find where most English versions translate ἐν with "about" is ὅτι ἀποροῦμαι ἐν ὑμῖν. Would this not rather by "I am puzzled by you" or "I am puzzled because of you" rather than "I am puzzled about you"? Well, I suppose number k "with regard to" is a possibility. What do you think?
Iver Larsen wrote:Today I was looking at Rom 11:2-4. I am just here quoting the part that is relevant for my question:
οὐκ οἴδατε ἐν Ἠλίᾳ τί λέγει ἡ γραφή, ὡς ἐντυγχάνει τῷ θεῷ κατὰ τοῦ Ἰσραήλ; ... 4 ἀλλὰ τί λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ χρηματισμός; Κατέλιπον ἐμαυτῷ ἑπτακισχιλίους ἄνδρας, οἵτινες οὐκ ἔκαμψαν γόνυ τῇ Βάαλ.
So, is the meaning here really "about Elijah"? What about "Don't you know what Scripture says to Elijah?" Quite often Scripture is personified and given a voice with the understanding that it is God who is speaking. The disctinction between "it says" and "he says" is often blurred when Scripture is quoted, especially in the book of Hebrews.
In this case, verse 4 clarifies what God said to Elijah where we find the dative pronoun αὐτῷ as the recipient of the divine voice as recorded in Scripture.
The only other instance I could find where most English versions translate ἐν with "about" is ὅτι ἀποροῦμαι ἐν ὑμῖν. Would this not rather by "I am puzzled by you" or "I am puzzled because of you" rather than "I am puzzled about you"? Well, I suppose number k "with regard to" is a possibility. What do you think?
Iver Larsen wrote:It is tricky to argue from an English translation. I would have expected περί in connection with a Scripture talking about a person like in
Acts 1:16 ἔδει πληρωθῆναι τὴν γραφὴν ἣν προεῖπεν τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον διὰ στόματος Δαυὶδ περὶ Ἰούδα
Rom 1:2-3 ὃ προεπηγγείλατο διὰ τῶν προφητῶν αὐτοῦ ἐν γραφαῖς ἁγίαις 3 περὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ
Stephen Carlson wrote:I'm not sure I would agree that ἐν Ἠλίᾳ is fronted, because I construe it with οἴδατε instead of λέγει. In any case, however, the discourse function seems to be the same, providing a topical frame for the clause τί λέγει ἡ γραφή. This topicalizing discourse function fits the sense of ἐν as identified above.
Barnes wrote:Of Elias - Of Elijah. Greek, "Elijah" ἐν Ἡλιᾳ en Hēlia. This does not mean that it was said about Elijah, or concerning him; but the reference is to the usual manner of quoting the Scriptures among the Jews. The division into chapters and verses was to them unknown. (See the Introduction to the notes on Matthew.) Hence, the Old Testament was divided into portions designated by subjects. Thus, Luke 20:37; Mark 12:26, "At the bush," means the passage which contains the account of the burning bush; (see the notes on those places.) Here it means, in that passage or portion of Scripture which gives an account of Elijah.
Vincent wrote:Of Elias (ἐν Ἡλίᾳ)
Wrong; though Rev. has retained it: of Elijah, with in in margin; probably in order to avoid the awkward circumlocution in the passage treating of Elijah, or the ambiguous in Elijah. See on in the bush, Mark 12:26. Thucydides (i. 9) says: "Homer, in 'The handing down of the sceptre,' said," etc.; i.e., in the passage describing the transmission of the sceptre in the second book of the Iliad. A common form of quotation in the rabbinical writings. The passage cited is 1 Kings 19:10, 1 Kings 19:14.
Barnes wrote:How in the bush - At the burning bush. See Exodus 3:16. The meaning is, "in that part of the book of Exodus which contains the account of the burning bush. When there were no chapters and verses, it was the easiest way of quoting a book of the Old Testament "by the subject," and in this way it was often done by the Jews.
Vincent wrote:How in the bush God spake
An utterly wrong rendering. In the bush (ἐπὶ τοῦ βάτου), refers to a particular section in the Pentateuch, Exodus 3:2-6. The Jews were accustomed to designate portions of scripture by the most noteworthy thing contained in them. Therefore Rev., rightly, in the place concerning the bush. Wyc., in the book of Moses on the bush. The article refers to it as something familiar. Compare Romans 11:2, ἐν Ἠλίᾳ; i.e., in the section of scripture which tells of Elijah. There, however, the Rev. retains the A. V. of Elijah, and puts in in the margin.
Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Exabot [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest