Mark 6:52 - επι τοις αρτοις

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Louis L Sorenson
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Re: Mark 6:52 - επι τοις αρτοις

Post by Louis L Sorenson »

I've been following this thread the last few days. The passage in Mark 6.51-53 is
51 καὶ ἀνέβη πρὸς αὐτοὺς εἰς τὸ πλοῖον καὶ ἐκόπασεν ὁ ἄνεμος, καὶ λίαν [ἐκ περισσοῦ] ἐν ἑαυτοῖς ἐξίσταντο· 52 οὐ γὰρ συνῆκαν ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις, ἀλλʼ ἦν αὐτῶν ἡ καρδία πεπωρωμένη. 53 Καὶ διαπεράσαντες ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν ἦλθον εἰς Γεννησαρὲτ καὶ προσωρμίσθησαν.
BDAG under συνίημι
σ‌. ἐπί τινι understand with regard to, gain an insight (into someth.) (revealed by the context) ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις in connection with the loaves i.e. to understand that in the person and work of Jesus the disciples have all they need to carry out their mission Mk 6:52.
BDAG, under ἐπί (6)
⑥ marker of basis for a state of being, action, or result, on, w. dat. (Hom. et al.)
ⓐ ἐπʼ ἄρτῳ ζῆν live on bread Mt 4:4; Lk 4:4 (both Dt 8:3. cp. Ps.-Pla., Alcib. 1, 105c; Plut., Mor. 526d; Alciphron 3, 7, 5; SibOr 4, 154). ἐ. τῷ ῥήματί σου depending on your word Lk 5:5. οὐ συνῆκαν ἐ. τοῖς ἄρτοις they did not arrive at an understanding (of it) (by reflecting) on (the miracle of) the loaves Mk 6:52 (cp. Demosth. 18, 121 τί σαυτὸν οὐκ ἐλλεβορίζεις ἐ. τούτοις [sc. λόγοις];=why do you not come to an understanding concerning these words?). ἐ. τῇ πίστει on the basis of faith Ac 3:16; Phil 3:9. ἐπʼ ἐλπίδι on the basis of hope, supporting itself on hope Ac 2:26 (? s. ἐλπίς 1bα); Ro 4:18; 8:20; 1 Cor 9:10; Tit 1:2.—Ac 26:6 ἐπʼ ἐλπίδι gives the basis of the trial at law, as does ἐ. εὐεργεσίᾳ 4:9. ἀπολύειν τ. γυναῖκα ἐ. πορνείᾳ Mt 19:9 (cp. Dio Chrys. 26 [43], 10 ἀπολύειν ἐπʼ ἀργυρίῳ; Ath. 2, 3 κρίνεσθαι … μὴ ἐ. τῷ ὀνόματι, ἐ. δὲ τῷ ἀδικήματι). γυναικὸς ἐ. πόλλαις ἁμαρτίαις διαβληθείσης Papias (2:17). On the basis of the testimony of two witnesses (cp. Appian, Iber. 79 §343 ἤλεγχον ἐ. μάρτυσι) Hb 10:28 (Dt 17:6); sim. use of ἐ. τινί on the basis of someth.: 8:6; 9:10, 15 (here it may also be taken in the temporal sense; s. 18 below), 17. ἁμαρτάνειν ἐ. τῷ ὁμοιώματι τ. παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ Ro 5:14 (ὁμοίωμα 1). δαπανᾶν ἐ. τινι pay the expenses for someone Ac 21:24. ἀρκεῖσθαι ἐ. τινι be content w. someth. 3J 10.
ⓑ w. verbs of believing, hoping, trusting: πεποιθέναι (Wsd 3:9; Sus 35; 1 Macc 10:71; 2 Macc 7:40 and oft.) Lk 11:22; 18:9; 2 Cor 1:9; Hb 2:13 (2 Km 22:3). πιστεύειν Lk 24:25; Ro 9:33; 10:11; 1 Pt 2:6 (the last three Is 28:16). ἐλπίζειν (2 Macc 2:18; Sir 34:7) Ro 15:12 (Is 11:10); 1 Ti 4:10; 6:17; cp. 1J 3:3. παρρησιάζεσθαι Ac 14:3.
ⓒ after verbs which express feelings, opinions, etc.: at, because of, from, with (Hom. et al.) διαταράσσεσθαι Lk 1:29. ἐκθαυμάζειν Mk 12:17. ἐκπλήσσεσθαι Mt 7:28; Mk 1:22; Lk 4:32; Ac 13:12. ἐξίστασθαι (Jdth 11:16; Wsd 5:2 al.) Lk 2:47. ἐπαισχύνεσθαι (Is 1:29) Ro 6:21. εὐφραίνεσθαι (Sir 16:1; 18:32; 1 Macc 11:44) Rv 18:20. θαμβεῖσθαι Mk 10:24; cp. Lk 5:9; Ac 3:10. θαυμάζειν (Lev 26:32; Jdth 10:7 al.; Jos., Ant. 10, 277) Mk 12:17 v.l. μακροθυμεῖν (Sir 18:11; 29:8; 35:19) Mt 18:26, 29; Lk 18:7; Js 5:7. μετανοεῖν (Plut., Ag. 803 [19, 5]; Ps.-Lucian, Salt. 84; Prayer of Manasseh [=Odes 12] 7; Just., A I, 61, 10; D. 95, 3 al.) 2 Cor 12:21. ὀδυνᾶσθαι (cp. Tob 6:15) Ac 20:38. ὀργίζεσθαι Rv 12:17. σπλαγχνίζεσθαι Mt 14:14; Lk 7:13. συλλυπεῖσθαι Mk 3:5. στυγνάζειν 10:22. χαίρειν (PEleph 13, 3; Jos., Ant. 1, 294; Tob 13:15; Bar 4:33; JosAs 4:2; Ar. 15, 7) Mt 18:13; Lk 1:14; 13:17; Ro 16:19 al. χαρὰν καὶ παράκλησιν ἔχειν Phlm 7. χαρὰ ἔσται Lk 15:7; cp. vs. 10 (Jos., Ant. 6, 116 ἡ ἐ. τῇ νίκῃ χαρά). Also w. verbs that denote aroused feelings παραζηλοῦν and παροργίζειν make jealous and angry at Ro 10:19 (Dt 32:21). παρακαλεῖν 1 Th 3:7a (cp. Just., D. 78:8 παράκλησιν ἐχουσῶν ἐ.), as well as those verbs that denote an expression of the emotions ἀγαλλιᾶσθαι (cp. Tob 13:15; Ps 69:5) Lk 1:47; Hs 8, 1, 18; 9, 24, 2. καυχᾶσθαι (Diod S 16, 70; Sir 30:2) Ro 5:2. κοπετὸν ποιεῖν (cp. 3 Macc 4:3) Ac 8:2. ὀλολύζειν Js 5:1. αἰνεῖν (cp. X., An. 3, 1, 45 al.) Lk 2:20. δοξάζειν (Polyb. 6, 53, 10; cp. Diod S 17, 21, 4 δόξα ἐ. ἀνδρείᾳ=fame because of bravery) Ac 4:21; 2 Cor 9:13. εὐχαριστεῖν give thanks for someth. (s. εὐχαριστέω 2; UPZ 59, 10 [168 B.C.] ἐ. τῷ ἐρρῶσθαί σε τ. θεοῖς εὐχαρίστουν) 1 Cor 1:4; cp. 2 Cor 9:15; 1 Th 3:9.—ἐφʼ ᾧ = ἐπὶ τούτῳ ὅτι for this reason that, because (Diod S 19, 98; Appian, Bell. Civ. 1, 112 §520; Ael. Aristid. 53 p. 640 D.; Synes., Ep. 73 p. 221c; Damasc., Vi. Isid. 154; Syntipas p. 12, 9; 127, 8; Thomas Mag. ἐφʼ ᾧ ἀντὶ τοῦ διότι; cp. W-S. §24, 5b and 12f. S. WKümmel, D. Bild des Menschen im NT ’48, 36–40) Ro 5:12 (SLyonnet, Biblica 36, ’55, 436–56 [denies a causal sense here]. On the probability of commercial idiom s. FDanker, FGingrich Festschr. ’72, 104f, also Ro 5:12, Sin under Law: NTS 14, ’68, 424–39; against him SPorter, TynBull 41, ’90, 3–30, also NTS 39, ’93, 321–33; difft. JFitzmyer, Anchor Bible Comm.: Romans, ad loc. ‘w. the result that all have sinned’); 2 Cor 5:4; Phil 3:12; for, indeed 4:10.
So the question in hand is, does the preposition ἐπί mean something (with the dative) that is not listed in BDAG under ἐπί (or is not stated under ἑπί but is glossed under συνίημι. Or, is the BDAG explanation of ἐπί in Mark 6.51 the BEST explanation of this structure (ἐπί + dative following σύνιημι).

I see the preposition ἐπί as being one of the most difficult of prepositions to assign meaning to in regards to case of all the prepositions. On B-Greek, there has recently been a discussion of ἐπί. This thread is http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =12&t=1379 επι - Matt 14:14, 15:32; 4:6, 14:11 (David, a note, you really need to get BDAG to argue intelligently; you have many good insights. Don't shortchange yourself of ideas). If anyone looks at the synoptics examples of Jesus walking on the water, they will find that each gospel writer chooses a different case (gen. dat. acc.) for 'walking on the water.'

Two other explanations of ἐπί in BDAG need to be looked at that could explain ἐπί in Mark 6.51.

(1) BDAG #8 (Νοτε· This structure is listed under ἐπί + the genitive only, no examples of the dative are given): (ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις = regarding the loaves)
⑧ marker of perspective, in consideration of, in regard to, on the basis of, concerning, about, w. gen. (Antig. Car. 164 ἐ. τῶν οἴνων ἀλλοιοῦσθαι; 4 Macc. 2:9 ἐ. τῶν ἑτέρων … ἔστιν ἐπιγνῶναι τοῦτο, ὅτι …; Ath. 29, 2 τὰ ἐ. τῆς μανίας πάθη) ἐ. δύο ἢ τριῶν μαρτύρων on the evidence of two or three witnesses 1 Ti 5:19 (cp. TestAbr A 13 p. 92, 22ff. [Stone p. 32]). Sim. in the expr. ἐ. στόματος δύο μαρτύρων (Dt 19:15) Mt 18:16; 2 Cor 13:1. ἐπʼ αὐτῆς on the basis of it Hb 7:11. ἐπʼ ἀληθείας based on truth = in accordance w. truth, truly (Demosth. 18, 17 ἐπʼ ἀληθείας οὐδεμιᾶς εἰρημένα; POxy 255, 16 [48 A.D.]; Da 2:8; Tob 8:7; En 104:11) Mk 12:14, 32; Lk 4:25; 20:21; Ac 4:27. ἐφʼ ἑαυτοῦ based on himself = to or by himself (X., An. 2, 4, 10; Demosth. 18, 224 ἐκρίνετο ἐφʼ ἑαυτοῦ; Dionys. Hal., Comp. Verb. 16 ἐ. σεαυτοῦ. Cp. Kühner-G. I 498e) 2 Cor 10:7.—To introduce the object which is to be discussed or acted upon λέγειν ἐ. τινος speak of, about someth. (Pla., Charm., 155d, Leg. 2, 662d; Isocr. 6, 41; Aelian, VH 1, 30; Jer 35:8; EpArist 162; 170; Ath. 5:1 ἐ. τοῦ νοητοῦ … δογματίζειν) Gal 3:16. Do someth. on, in the case of (cp. 1 Esdr 1:22) σημεῖα ποιεῖν ἐ. τῶν ἀσθενούντων work miracles on the sick J 6:2.—On B 13:6 s. τίθημι 1bζ.—In ref. to someth. (Aristot., Pol. 1280a, 17; 4 Macc 12:5 τῶν ἐ. τῆς βασιλείας … πραγμάτων; Just., A I, 5, 1 ἐφʼ ἡμῶν ‘in our case’, D. 131, 4; Ath. 15, 3 ἐ. τῆς ὕλης καὶ τοῦ θεοῦ ‘as respects God and matter, so …’) ἐ. τινων δεῖ ἐγκρατεύεσθαι in certain matters one must practice self-control Hm 8:1. οὔτε … οἴδασι τὸν ἐ. τοῦ πυροῦ σπόρον nor do they comprehend (the figurative sense of) the sowing of wheat AcPlCor 2:26 (cp. 1 Cor 15:36f).
(2) BDAG #18. = ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις (at the occasion of the loaves)
⑱ marker of temporal associations, in the time of, at, on, for
ⓐ w. gen., time within which an event or condition takes place (Hom.+) in the time of, under (kings or other rulers): in the time of Elisha Lk 4:27 (cp. Just., D. 46, 6 ἐ. Ἠλίου). ἐ. τῆς μετοικεσίας at the time of the exile Mt 1:11. Under=during the rule or administration of (Hes., Op. 111; Hdt. 6, 98 al.; OGI 90, 15; PAmh 43, 2 [173 B.C.]; UPZ 162 V, 5 [117 B.C.]; 1 Esdr 2:12; 1 Macc 13:42; 2 Macc 15:22; Jos., Ant. 12, 156 ἐ. ἀρχιερέως Ὀ.) ἐ. Ἀβιαθὰρ ἀρχιερέως under, in the time of, Abiathar the high priest Mk 2:26. ἐ. ἀρχιερέως Ἅννα καὶ Καιάφα Lk 3:2. ἐ. Κλαυδίου Ac 11:28 (Just., A I, 26, 2). ἐ. τῶν πατέρων in the time of the fathers 1 Cl 23:3. ἐπʼ ἐσχάτων τῶν ἡμερῶν in the last days (Gen 49:1; Num 24:14; Mi 4:1; Jer 37:24; Da 10:14) 2 Pt 3:3; Hs 9, 12, 3; cp. Hb 1:2. ἐπʼ ἐσχάτου τοῦ χρόνου in the last time Jd 18. ἐπʼ ἐσχάτου τῶν χρόνων at the end of the times/ages 1 Pt 1:20. ἐ. τῶν προσευχῶν μου when I pray, in my prayers (cp. PTebt 58, 31 [111 B.C.] ἐ. τ. διαλόγου, ‘in the discussion’; 4 Macc 15:19 ἐ. τ. βασάνων ‘during the tortures’; Sir 37:29; 3 Macc 5:40; Demetr.: 722, Fgm. 1, 14 Jac. ἐ. τοῦ ἀρίστου; Synes., Ep. 121 p. 258c ἐ. τῶν κοινῶν ἱερῶν) Ro 1:10; Eph 1:16; 1 Th 1:2; Phlm 4.
ⓑ w. dat., time at or during which (Hom. et al.; PTebt 5, 66 [118 B.C.]; PAmh 157; LXX; Just., A I, 13, 3 ἐ. χρόνοις Τίερίου) at, in, at the time of, during: ἐ. τοῖς νῦν χρόνοις in these present times 2 Cl 19:4. ἐ. τῇ πρώτῃ διαθήκῃ at the time of the first covenant Hb 9:15. ἐ. συντελείᾳ τ. αἰώνων at the close of the age 9:26 (Tat. 13, 1 ἐ. σ‌. τοῦ κόσμου; cp. Sir 22:10 and PLond III, 954, 18 p. 154 [260 A.D.] ἐ. τέλει τ. χρόνου; POxy 275, 20 [66 A.D.] ἐ. συνκλεισμῷ τ. χρόνου; En 27:3 ἐπʼ ἐσχάτοις αἰώσιν). ἐ. τῇ θυσίᾳ at the time of, together with, the sacrifice Phil 2:17. ἐ. πάσῃ τῇ μνείᾳ ὑμῶν at every remembrance of you Phil 1:3. ἐ. παροργισμῷ ὑμῶν during your wrath, i.e. while you are angry Eph 4:26. ἐ. πάσῃ τῇ ἀνάγκῃ in all (our) distress 1 Th 3:7b. ἐ. πάσῃ τῇ θλίψει 2 Cor 1:4. ἐ. τούτῳ in the meanwhile J 4:27 (Lucian, Dial. Deor. 17, 2, cp. Philops. 14 p. 41; Syntipas p. 76, 2 ἐφʼ ἡμέραις ἑπτα; 74, 6).
ⓒ w. acc.
α. answering the question ‘when?’ on: ἐ. τὴν αὔριον (Sb 6011, 14 [I B.C.]; PRyl 441 ἐ. τὴν ἐπαύριον) (on) the next day Lk 10:35; Ac 4:5. ἐ. τὴν ὥραν τ. προσευχῆς at the hour of prayer 3:1 (Polyaenus 8, 17 ἐ. ὥραν ὡρισμένην).
β. answering the qu. ‘how long?’ for, over a period of (Hom. et al.; Mitt-Wilck. II/2, 170, 8=BGU 1058, 9 [13 B.C.]; POxy 275, 9; 15 ἐ. τὸν ὅλον χρόνον; PTebt 381, 19 ἐφʼ ὸ̔ν χρόνον περίεστιν ἡ μήτηρ; LXX; En 106:15; TestJob 30:2 ἐ. ὥρας τρεῖς; TestJud 3:4; TestGad 5:11; Jos., Ant. 11, 2; Just., D. 142, 1 ἐ. ποσόν ‘for awhile’) ἐ. ἔτη τρία for three years (Phlegon: 257 Fgm. 36, 2, 1 Jac.) Lk 4:25. ἐ. τρεῖς ἡμέρας for three days (Diod S 13, 19, 2; Arrian, Anab. 4, 9, 4; GDI 4706, 119 [Thera] ἐπʼ ἀμέρας τρεῖς) GPt 8:30 al. ἐ. ἡμέρας πλείους over a period of many days (Jos., Ant. 4, 277) Ac 13:31.—16:18 (ἐ. πολλὰς ἡμέρας as Appian, Liby. 29 §124; cp. Diod S 3, 16, 4); 17:2; 19:8, 10, 34; 27:20; Hb 11:30. ἐ. χρόνον for a while (cp. Il. 2, 299; Hdt. 9, 22, 1; Apollon. Rhod. 4, 1257; Jos., Vi. 2) Lk 18:4. ἐ. πλείονα χρόνον (Diod S 3, 16, 6; Hero Alex. I p. 344, 17) Ac 18:20. ἐφʼ ὅσον χρόνον as long as Ro 7:1; 1 Cor 7:39; Gal 4:1. Also ἐφʼ ὅσον as long as Mt 9:15; 2 Pt 1:13 (for other mngs. of ἐφʼ ὅσον s. above under 13). ἐφʼ ἱκανόν (sc. χρόνον) for a considerable time (EpArist 109) Ac 20:11. ἐ. χρόνον ἱκανόν Qua. ἐ. πολύ for a long time, throughout a long period of time (Thu. 1, 7; 1, 18, 1; 2, 16, 1 al.; Appian, Liby. 5 §21; Arrian, Cyneg. 23, 1; Lucian, Toxar. 20; Wsd 18:20; Sir 49:13; JosAs 19:3; Jos., Vi. 66: Just., A I, 65, 3) Ac 28:6. ἐ. πλεῖον the same (schol. on Pind., N. 7, 56b; PLille 3, 16 [III B.C.]; Jdth 13:1; Sir prol. l. 7; Jos., Ant. 18, 150) Ac 20:9; any longer (Lucian, D. Deor. 5, 3; Appian, Hann. 54 §227; 3 Macc 5:8; Wsd 8:12; Ath. 12, 3) Ac 24:4; 1 Cl 55:1.
I see a tension in BDAG in the two entries. The fact that Danker felt obliged to have an extended gloss under ἐπί
οὐ συνῆκαν ἐ. τοῖς ἄρτοις they did not arrive at an understanding (of it) (by reflecting) on (the miracle of) the loaves Mk 6:52 (cp. Demosth. 18, 121 τί σαυτὸν οὐκ ἐλλεβορίζεις ἐ. τούτοις [sc. λόγοις];=why do you not come to an understanding concerning these words?).
as if the phrase was written:
οὐ συνῆκαν ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις (=of it) (by reflecting = ἀναθεωροῦντες) on (the miracle of = ἐπὶ τοῦ σημείῳ) the loaves (τῶν ἄρτων sic! dative!)
stretches a simpler understanding of the meaning of ἐπί.

The ONLY way to work this out (imoho) is to look at the combinations of σύνίημι + ἐπί + dative. There are only 32 passages (with a TLG search of ἑπί + συνι + +οις ) which return any data. The only significant return, other than what David has sculled up from the LXX and Perseus is
Aëtius Med., Iatricorum liber ix (0718: 009)
“”Ἀετίου Ἀμιδηνοῦ λόγος ἔνατος””, Ed. Zervos, S., 1911; Athena 23.
Chapter 28, line 3



Περὶ εἰλεοῦ καὶ χορδαψοῦ Ἀρχιγένους.


Ὁ εἰλεὸς πάθος ἐστὶν ἐντέρων ὀδύνην ὀλέθριον ἐπιφέρον, αἰτία δὲ
τοῦ πάθους, συνεχὴς διαφθορὰ σιτίων πολλῶν τε καὶ ποικίλων καὶ
ἀσυνήθων καὶ μάλιστα τῶν καταπιμέλων· συνίσταται δὲ καὶ ἐπὶ πλη-
γαῖς τισι καὶ ἐπὶ ψύξεσιν ἰσχυραῖς καὶ ἐπὶ ψυχροῦ ἀθρόᾳ πόσει, μά-
λιστα ἐφ' ἱδρῶτι παραλαμβανομένῃ, συμβαίνει δὲ καὶ οἷς ἔντερον
εἰς τὸν ὀσχεὸν σὺν τῇ κόπρῳ κατέβη, εἶτα ἀνεθλίβη μετὰ βίας
καὶ ἐκ τούτου ἐφλέγμηνε·
And that may not have any application here.

Reading Danker's gloss, it seems like "regarding" is the simplest one word gloss. I don't understand why he feels the need to expand the explanation under the ἐπί entry and not just stay with the gloss 'regarding' which he gives under the 'συνίημι' entry.
David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Mark 6:52 - επι τοις αρτοις

Post by David Lim »

Hello Louis! Thanks for your advice and also for searching TLG for us!
Louis L Sorenson wrote:Two other explanations of ἐπί in BDAG need to be looked at that could explain ἐπί in Mark 6.51.

[...]

(2) BDAG #18. = ἐπὶ τοῖς ἄρτοις (at the occasion of the loaves)

[...]
Interesting. It certainly seems like a valid possibility to me; "they did not understand at the time when the miracle of the bread loaves was performed."
Louis L Sorenson wrote:The ONLY way to work this out (imoho) is to look at the combinations of σύνίημι + ἐπί + dative. There are only 32 passages (with a TLG search of ἑπί + συνι + +οις ) which return any data. The only significant return, other than what David has sculled up from the LXX and Perseus is
Aëtius Med., Iatricorum liber ix (0718: 009)
“”Ἀετίου Ἀμιδηνοῦ λόγος ἔνατος””, Ed. Zervos, S., 1911; Athena 23.
Chapter 28, line 3



Περὶ εἰλεοῦ καὶ χορδαψοῦ Ἀρχιγένους.


Ὁ εἰλεὸς πάθος ἐστὶν ἐντέρων ὀδύνην ὀλέθριον ἐπιφέρον, αἰτία δὲ
τοῦ πάθους, συνεχὴς διαφθορὰ σιτίων πολλῶν τε καὶ ποικίλων καὶ
ἀσυνήθων καὶ μάλιστα τῶν καταπιμέλων· συνίσταται δὲ καὶ ἐπὶ πλη-
γαῖς τισι καὶ ἐπὶ ψύξεσιν ἰσχυραῖς καὶ ἐπὶ ψυχροῦ ἀθρόᾳ πόσει, μά-
λιστα ἐφ' ἱδρῶτι παραλαμβανομένῃ, συμβαίνει δὲ καὶ οἷς ἔντερον
εἰς τὸν ὀσχεὸν σὺν τῇ κόπρῳ κατέβη, εἶτα ἀνεθλίβη μετὰ βίας
καὶ ἐκ τούτου ἐφλέγμηνε·
And that may not have any application here.
Isn't "συνισταται" from "συνιστημι", not "συνιημι"?

Do you mind searching for "συνη*" also?

Thanks a lot!
δαυιδ λιμ
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