Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

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Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 17th, 2012, 3:24 pm

Mat 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
πειρασμός tempting ME: from OFr. tempter 'to test', from L. temptare 'handle, test, try'.

ἐκπειράζω Mat 6:13 And bring in us not to tempting, but flow [draw as a current to oneself] us from the wicked
1Co 10:9; Luk 22:40, Joh 17:15; 2Th 3:3
ενεγκης (inf = ενεγκειν) tote, bear or carry a load, bring, fetch, brought, carry off, give birth
εἰσφέρω bring in, τῖμον Archil.l.c.; ενεγκης (inf = ενεγκειν)
ῥῦσαι flow [as a current of living water] or draw for oneself or to oneself
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby George F Somsel » October 20th, 2012, 1:27 am

It is unwise to read one verse in isolation from its context. Here the context is the entire prayer which Jesus inculcates into his disciples

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω …
ἐλθέτω …
γενηθήτω …
καὶ ἄφες …
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς … ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι …

Each petition is addressed to the same subject, Πάτερ ἡμῶν.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 20th, 2012, 10:33 am

George F Somsel wrote:It is unwise to read one verse in isolation from its context. Here the context is the entire prayer which Jesus inculcates into his disciples

Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω …
ἐλθέτω …
γενηθήτω …
καὶ ἄφες …
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς … ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι …

Each petition is addressed to the same subject, Πάτερ ἡμῶν.

Who draws as a current to oneself,? that is of course the Πάτερ ἡμῶν
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby David Lim » October 20th, 2012, 9:32 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote:Who draws as a current to oneself,? that is of course the Πάτερ ἡμῶν


Sorry I can't figure out what you are trying to say in any of your posts. Can you say what you mean clearly?
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 21st, 2012, 8:28 am

David Lim wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:Who draws as a current to oneself,? that is of course the Πάτερ ἡμῶν


Sorry I can't figure out what you are trying to say in any of your posts. Can you say what you mean clearly?

Thanks, yes, what it is saying is that God is the flowing Spirit of waters, a current that draws you into His flowing portion of grace, if you follow the commands. The flowing portion, portion of grace, ρεύση
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 21st, 2012, 9:45 am

Roy Fredrick wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:Who draws as a current to oneself,? that is of course the Πάτερ ἡμῶν


Sorry I can't figure out what you are trying to say in any of your posts. Can you say what you mean clearly?

Thanks, yes, what it is saying is that God is the flowing Spirit of waters, a current that draws you into His flowing portion of grace, if you follow the commands. The flowing portion, portion of grace, ρεύση


Let me point out that nothing in the Greek particularly leads us to this particular, ah, theological, conclusion. Please restrict your comments specifically to the Greek texts. For your edification, here is BDAG on ῥύομαι, and comment below that:

ῥύομαι mid. dep. (Hom.+—Anz 275f; FChase, The Lord’s Prayer in the Early Church: Texts and Studies I/3, 1891, 71ff) fut. ῥύσομαι; 1 aor. ἐ(ρ)ρυσάμην, impv. ῥῦσαι Mt 6:13; pf. 3 sg. ἔρυσται [=εἴρυσται] AcPlCor 1:8. Pass.: fut. ῥυσθήσομαι LXX; 1 aor. ἐ(ρ)ρύσθην (on the spelling w. one ρ or two s. B-D-F §11, 1; 101 p. 48; Mlt-H. 101f; 193) to rescue from danger, save, rescue, deliver, preserve τινά someone (Hippol., Ref. 8, 10, 3; Theoph. Ant. 3, 9 [p. 224, 15]) Mt 27:43; 1 Cl 16:16 (both Ps 21:9); 2 Pt 2:7; 1 Cl 8:4 (Is 1:17); 22:8 (Ps 33:20) v.l.; 55:6; 2 Cl 6:8 (Ezk 14:18). τινὰ ἀπό τινος rescue, save, deliver, or preserve someone fr. someone or someth. (B-D-F §180; s. also Rob. 517f.—Pr 2:12; Is 25:4; Ezk 37:23; 1 Macc 12:15; PsSol 4:23 al.; TestReub 4:10; JosAs 12:7; ApcSed 16:7; Sib-Or 2, 344; ἀπὸ τῆς πλάνης Orig., C. Cels. 5, 33, 39; Did., Gen. 154, 20) Mt 6:13; Lk 11:4 v.l. (on the subject matter s. Hierocles 25 [ln. 61], 474 Ζεῦ πάτερ, ἦ πολλῶν κε κακῶν λύσειας ἅπαντας); 2 Ti 4:18; 1 Cl 60:3b; D 8:2; 10:5. Pass. Ac 5:15 v.l.; Ro 15:31; 2 Th 3:2; 1 Cl 60:3a. Also τινὰ ἔκ τινος (Anacreon 111 Diehl; Hdt. 5, 49; Diod S 12, 53, 1; hymn to Isis: SEG VIII, 548, 27 [I B.C.]; PBad 48, 3 [126 B.C.] ἐκ πολεμίων; LXX; TestSim 2:8; Jos., Ant. 12, 407; Just., D. 111, 3; Mel., P. 68, 489.—Aristoxenus, Fgm. 113 ῥύεσθαι καὶ ἐρύεσθαι διαφορὰν ἔχει πρὸς ἄλληλα. τὸ μὲν γὰρ ῥύεσθαι ἐκ θανάτου ἕλκειν, τὸ δὲ ἐρύεσθαι φυλάττειν=‘ῥύεσθαι and ἐρύεσθαι are different: ῥ. means rescuing fr. death, but ἐ. to ward off [death]’) 2 Ti 3:11; from death (SibOr 2, 81; Just., D. 111, 3) 2 Cor 1:10a; 1 Cl 56:9 (Job 5:20); 2 Cl 16:4 (w. acc. to be supplied); fr. the power of darkness Col 1:13 (cp. JosAs 15:13 ἐκ τοῦ σκότους); fr. wrath to come 1 Th 1:10; fr. blood-guilt 1 Cl 18:14 (Ps 50:16); fr. all afflictions 22:7 (Ps 33:18); fr. eternal punishment 2 Cl 6:7; fr. temptation 2 Pt 2:9. τίς με ῥύσεται ἐκ τοῦ σώματος τοῦ θανάτου τούτου; who will set me free from this body of death? Ro 7:24. ἐκ δεσμῶν ἐρύσατο τὸν κόσμον ὅλον (God, who) rescued the entire world from its chains AcPl Ha 3, 7. ἐκ χειρὸς ἀνόμου ὁ θεὸς ἐρύσατο τὸν Ἰσραήλ 8, 10. εἴρυσταί σε κύριος ἐκ χειρὸς ἀνόμου the Lord rescues you from a lawless hand AcPlCor 1:8 (on the form Schwyzer I 681 n. 1: ‘praesentisches Perfekt’). Pass. ῥυσθῆναι ἐκ χειρός τινος be rescued from someone’s power Lk 1:74 (cp. Jos., Vi. 83, Ant. 7, 151; JosAs 28:3 ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἐκ τῶν χειρῶν τῶν ἀδελφῶν). ἐκ στόματος λέοντος be saved from the jaws of the lion 2 Ti 4:17. ῥ. τινά τινι save someone by someth. (Diod S 13, 64, 6 ἐρρύσατο χρήμασι τὴν ἰδίαν ψυχήν=his life by means of money) 2 Cl 6:9. Also ῥ. τινα διά τινος 1 Cl 55:1. Abs. Mt 27:43 (for a ‘divine’ rescue of a θεοσεβής fr. extreme danger s. Hdt. 1, 86, 2, Croesus on the pyre: Κῦρος βουλόμενος εἰδέναι εἴ τίς μιν δαιμόνων ῥύσεται τοῦ μὴ ζῶντα κατακαυθῆναι=Cyrus wishing to know whether some divinity would rescue (Croesus) from being burned alive. S. also Ps 21:9); 2 Cor 1:10b; AcPl Ha 2, 30. ῥυσθείητε ἀπὸ τούτων ἁπάντων may you be delivered from all these (men or sins) D 5:2.—Subst. ὁ ῥυόμενος the deliverer Ro 11:26 (Is 59:20); 1 Cl 35:11 (Ps 49:22).—DELG s.v. ἔρυμαι. M-M. EDNT. TW.

Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., & Bauer, W. (2000). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed.) (907–908). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.

You are apparently confusing this with ῥέω, a different root altogether. Here is a link to the classical Greek root from which the deponent derives:

http://tinyurl.com/9pyq86a

Notice it says nothing about flowing waters of any kind.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 21st, 2012, 3:14 pm

David Lim wrote: Let me point out that nothing in the Greek particularly leads us to this particular, ah, theological, conclusion. Please restrict your comments specifically to the Greek texts. For your edification, here is BDAG on ῥύομαι, and comment below that:You are apparently confusing this with ῥέω, a different root altogether. Here is a link to the classical Greek root from which the deponent derives: http://tinyurl.com/9pyq86a Notice it says nothing about flowing waters of any kind.
Please restrict your comments specifically to the Greek texts? Thanks but you need to read a little bit further; I am not confused. You need to look more closely at the original GREEK and of the original SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON:

Page 565 ῥύομαι In the version of the Lord's Prayer which forms part of the vi/A.D. Christian amulet, BGU III. 954s3 (= Selections, p. 134), we find ῥῦσ [αι η] in accordance with the AV interpretation of Mt 6 13, Cf., however, the inscr. on a very old church in central Phrygia ῥῦση, (C. and B. ii. p. 741 No. 678).
As exx. of the verb we may add P Lond 413 1 c. A.D. 346 = II. p. 30;1 ῥῦσει, and the inscr. on a statue in honour of Hadrian erected A. D). 125, Syll 383 (= 3 S35 A)2; ῥυσαμενω. The verb and its constructions are fully illustrated hv Chase The Lord's Prayer p. 71 ff.in Texts and Studies i. 3, and Anz Subsidia p. 275 f.
For the subst. ῥῦσις cf. Kaibel 2001 Roman age.
Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, see e.g. P Giss I. 79"'12(c. A.D. 117) εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
and the other exx. collected by the editor add. The noun seems to have a different meaning in P Bad 15:341 (i/B.C.) ειπε δε τη αδελφη μοι την ρυσιν ινα χειρογραφησω. For its use in connexion with the " flow" of blood, as in Mk 5 25, Lk 8 43, 44; see Vett. Val. p. 282 30
ῥῦσις from <G4506> (rhuomai) in the sense of its congener <G4482> (rheo); a flux (of blood) :- issue.Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER
NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.

ῥύσις a flowing, flow, Plat. Middle Liddell ῥύσις, -εως, ἡ ῥῦσαιη
Homer, Odyssey [95] and they draw forth wine, and waste it in insolent wise. book 14, card 72: ... φαίνηται ἄριστος. αὐτὰρ ἐγὼ σῦς τάσδε φυλάσσω τε ῥύομαί τε, καί σφι συῶν τὸν ἄριστον ἐῢ κρίνας
Pausanias, Description of Greece book 4, chapter 20: ... εὖτε τράγος πίνῃσι Νέδης ἑλικόρροον ὕδωρ, οὐκέτι Μεσσήνην ῥύομαι: σχεδόθεν γὰρ ὄλεθρος. εἰσὶ δὲ αἱ πηγαὶ Whensoever a he-goat drinks of Neda's winding stream,
Greek Anthology, Volume III (ed. W. R. Paton) book 9, chapter 764: ... δ᾽ ἀστυφέλικτον ἄγω χάριν ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὺς δμῶας μυιοσόβου ῥύομαι ἀτμενίης.
to draw to oneself
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 21st, 2012, 7:50 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote:
David Lim wrote: Let me point out that nothing in the Greek particularly leads us to this particular, ah, theological, conclusion. Please restrict your comments specifically to the Greek texts. For your edification, here is BDAG on ῥύομαι, and comment below that:You are apparently confusing this with ῥέω, a different root altogether. Here is a link to the classical Greek root from which the deponent derives: http://tinyurl.com/9pyq86a Notice it says nothing about flowing waters of any kind.
Please restrict your comments specifically to the Greek texts? Thanks but you need to read a little bit further; I am not confused. You need to look more closely at the original GREEK and of the original SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON:

Page 565 ῥύομαι In the version of the Lord's Prayer which forms part of the vi/A.D. Christian amulet, BGU III. 954s3 (= Selections, p. 134), we find ῥῦσ [αι η] in accordance with the AV interpretation of Mt 6 13, Cf., however, the inscr. on a very old church in central Phrygia ῥῦση, (C. and B. ii. p. 741 No. 678).
As exx. of the verb we may add P Lond 413 1 c. A.D. 346 = II. p. 30;1 ῥῦσει, and the inscr. on a statue in honour of Hadrian erected A. D). 125, Syll 383 (= 3 S35 A)2; ῥυσαμενω. The verb and its constructions are fully illustrated hv Chase The Lord's Prayer p. 71 ff.in Texts and Studies i. 3, and Anz Subsidia p. 275 f.
For the subst. ῥῦσις cf. Kaibel 2001 Roman age.
Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, see e.g. P Giss I. 79"'12(c. A.D. 117) εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
and the other exx. collected by the editor add. The noun seems to have a different meaning in P Bad 15:341 (i/B.C.) ειπε δε τη αδελφη μοι την ρυσιν ινα χειρογραφησω. For its use in connexion with the " flow" of blood, as in Mk 5 25, Lk 8 43, 44; see Vett. Val. p. 282 30
ῥῦσις from <G4506> (rhuomai) in the sense of its congener <G4482> (rheo); a flux (of blood) :- issue.Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER
NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.

ῥύσις a flowing, flow, Plat. Middle Liddell ῥύσις, -εως, ἡ ῥῦσαιη
Homer, Odyssey [95] and they draw forth wine, and waste it in insolent wise. book 14, card 72: ... φαίνηται ἄριστος. αὐτὰρ ἐγὼ σῦς τάσδε φυλάσσω τε ῥύομαί τε, καί σφι συῶν τὸν ἄριστον ἐῢ κρίνας
Pausanias, Description of Greece book 4, chapter 20: ... εὖτε τράγος πίνῃσι Νέδης ἑλικόρροον ὕδωρ, οὐκέτι Μεσσήνην ῥύομαι: σχεδόθεν γὰρ ὄλεθρος. εἰσὶ δὲ αἱ πηγαὶ Whensoever a he-goat drinks of Neda's winding stream,
Greek Anthology, Volume III (ed. W. R. Paton) book 9, chapter 764: ... δ᾽ ἀστυφέλικτον ἄγω χάριν ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὺς δμῶας μυιοσόβου ῥύομαι ἀτμενίης.
to draw to oneself


Please note that the citation above is from me, not from David Lim.

First of all, the citation from M&M (of which I also have a copy, thank you) does not support what you are trying to say. Read it carefully – it does not link the imperative ῥῦσαι in the Lord's prayer with the noun ῤύσις that is derived from ῤέω. Secondly, if you have another look at L&S, you'll see that there are actually two entries for ῤύσις , one derived from ἐρύω/ῥύομαι, meaning "rescue" or some such, the other derived from ῤέω.

Now, I think I have to encourage you here as one who has been reading and teaching ancient Greek for many years, and warn you as a moderator (yes, I'm a moderator on this forum, although I haven't been too active in that role of late). You appear to be making mistakes which either a) reflect a theological tendency or b) reflect little actual ability with the Greek or c) a combination of both. I suspect this is mostly b, and I think more study of Greek in general and on how to use lexigraphical resources in particular would benefit you greatly. I also suggest going to the beginners forum and presenting your ideas in the form of questions with an honest desire to learn from those who have studied more.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Jason Hare » October 22nd, 2012, 4:09 am

Roy Fredrick wrote:Mat 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
πειρασμός tempting ME: from OFr. tempter 'to test', from L. temptare 'handle, test, try'.

ἐκπειράζω Mat 6:13 And bring in us not to tempting, but flow [draw as a current to oneself] us from the wicked
1Co 10:9; Luk 22:40, Joh 17:15; 2Th 3:3
ενεγκης (inf = ενεγκειν) tote, bear or carry a load, bring, fetch, brought, carry off, give birth
εἰσφέρω bring in, τῖμον Archil.l.c.; ενεγκης (inf = ενεγκειν)
ῥῦσαι flow [as a current of living water] or draw for oneself or to oneself
Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek-English Lexicon


This simply makes no sense. :shock:

Is there a question hidden in this ball of confusion?
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 22nd, 2012, 11:08 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:First of all, the citation from M&M (of which I also have a copy, thank you) does not support what you are trying to say. Read it carefully – it does not link the imperative ῥῦσαι in the Lord's prayer with the noun ῤύσις that is derived from ῤέω. Secondly, if you have another look at L&S, you'll see that there are actually two entries for ῤύσις , one derived from ἐρύω/ῥύομαι, meaning "rescue" or some such, the other derived from ῤέω.

Now, I think I have to encourage you here as one who has been reading and teaching ancient Greek for many years, and warn you as a moderator (yes, I'm a moderator on this forum, although I haven't been too active in that role of late). You appear to be making mistakes which either a) reflect a theological tendency or b) reflect little actual ability with the Greek or c) a combination of both. I suspect this is mostly b, and I think more study of Greek in general and on how to use lexigraphical resources in particular would benefit you greatly. I also suggest going to the beginners forum and presenting your ideas in the form of questions with an honest desire to learn from those who have studied more.
Thank you kindly for your response, however here is the link: ῥύομαι (ρυ-, ρυ·σ-, ρυ·σ-, -, -, ρυσ·θ-) 1aor mp imp 2nd sg
4506 ῥύομαι Root: middle voice of an obsolete verb, akin to <G4482> (through the idea of a current, cf <G4511>)ῥύσις
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.
ρυω or rather ῥύομαι to draw out, extract; to extricate, rescue
1.a. pass. ρυσθω, in pl. ρυσθωμεν, 1.a. sub. pass. of ρυομαι. ρυσει, d. sin. cont.Att. of ρυσις. ρυσιδιφρος (fr. ρυω to draw)
ρυσιον (fr. ρυω to draw) ransom, sacrifice on deliverance. ῥύσις, Att. εως, (fr. ῥύομαι to deliver) . ῥύσις ῥύσιoς Att. εως, η, (fr. ρεω to flow) a flux, runnung; a stream, course
A Greek and English Dictionary, designed for use of schools and the undergraduate course of a collegiate education. Rev John Groves 1834
ordinary New
We know how our very familiarity with Scriptural language is apt to blind us to its full significance!
A Grammar of New Testament Greek. Vol. I. Prolegomena, by James Hope Moulton.

The flowing water of the Holy Spirit: Revelation 7:17 (YLT)
17 because the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters, and wipe away shall God every tear from their eyes.'
Luke 11:13 (ESV)
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV) 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

Lord's prayer Christian life, especially in view of the second advent, Mt 6 9-13
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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