Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 22nd, 2012, 8:28 pm

Roy Fredrick wrote: Thank you kindly for your response, however here is the link: ῥύομαι (ρυ-, ρυ·σ-, ρυ·σ-, -, -, ρυσ·θ-) 1aor mp imp 2nd sg
4506 ῥύομαι Root: middle voice of an obsolete verb, akin to <G4482> (through the idea of a current, cf <G4511>)ῥύσις
Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.


Strong's is not a proper resource for any kind of real work in ancient Greek. There are much better lexigraphical resources, and nobody who actually knows Greek thinks that ῥύομαι in any way is related to ῤέω. You are simply in error here.

ρυω or rather ῥύομαι to draw out, extract; to extricate, rescue
1.a. pass. ρυσθω, in pl. ρυσθωμεν, 1.a. sub. pass. of ρυομαι. ρυσει, d. sin. cont.Att. of ρυσις. ρυσιδιφρος (fr. ρυω to draw)
ρυσιον (fr. ρυω to draw) ransom, sacrifice on deliverance. ῥύσις, Att. εως, (fr. ῥύομαι to deliver) . ῥύσις ῥύσιoς Att. εως, η, (fr. ρεω to flow) a flux, runnung; a stream, course
A Greek and English Dictionary, designed for use of schools and the undergraduate course of a collegiate education. Rev John Groves 1834


What you've done is simply linked two separate entries that otherwise have nothing to do with each other.

We know how our very familiarity with Scriptural language is apt to blind us to its full significance!


Even if this were true, it's an opinion not related to the understanding of the Greek of the passage under discussion.

The flowing water of the Holy Spirit: Revelation 7:17 (YLT)
17 because the Lamb that is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters, and wipe away shall God every tear from their eyes.'
Luke 11:13 (ESV)
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
1 Corinthians 13:1 (ESV) 1 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.


These citations have nothing to do with the Greek syntax and vocabulary which you are trying to discuss.

Lord's prayer Christian life, especially in view of the second advent, Mt 6 9-13


These kinds of sentence fragments make your posts extremely difficult to understand.

Now, a second warning -- you really need to learn some Greek before you post anymore on any subject, or at least demonstrate that you are making progress in learning the language in a meaningful way. A third warning will put you on moderation.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 23rd, 2012, 9:01 am

Sir, may I remind you that source is from the Greek and not just from STRONG/THAYER?
We know how our very familiarity with Scriptural language is apt to blind us to its full significance!
A Grammar of New Testament Greek. Vol. I. Prolegomena, by James Hope Moulton.

I am not trying to offend you, but apparently you seem to know more than those who have written subjects on the word ῥύομαι, so I would, being a novice, admonish you to read carefully the exegesis of ρύω or rather ῥύομαι.

ρύω or rather ῥύομαι to draw out, extract; to extricate, rescue
1.a. pass. ρυσθω, in pl. ρυσθωμεν, 1.a. sub. pass. of ρυομαι. ρυσει, d. sin. cont.Att. of ρυσις. ρυσιδιφρος (fr.ρύω to draw)
ρυσιον (fr.ρύω to draw) ransom, sacrifice on deliverance. ῥύσις, Att. εως, (fr. ῥύομαι to deliver) . ῥύσις ῥύσιoς Att. εως, η, (fr. ῥέω to flow) a flux, runnung; a stream, course

ῥύομαι Ancient Greek Etymology: Middle voice of an obsolete verb, akin to ῥέω (through the idea of a current); compare ῥύσις
'Ρύω, or rather 'Ρύομαι, to draw drag; to drav) out, extract; to extricate, deliver, rescue ; to
guard, protect, defend. 'Ρύω or Γ Ρυ/ω, f. ρυήσω, same as ρίω, to fioiu. 'Plv and 'Ρις, ρινός, fj, (fr. ρίω to flow) 'ΡυσΟω, in pi. μυσθώμεν, 1 a. sub. pass, of ρύομαι. Ρύσει,ά. sin. cont. Att. of ρ^ύσις.
Ρυσ'ίδιφρος, -ου, b, >;, (fr. 'ρύω to draw, and δίφρος a chariot) driving a chariot ; drawing. Ρύσιον, -ου, το, (fr. ρύω to draw)
ransom ; a pawn, pledge, token; Ρύσις, -ιος, Att. -εως, ή, (fr. μίω to flow) a fiux, running ; a stream, course.
A Greek and English Dictionary, designed for use of schools and the undergraduate course of a collegiate education. Rev John Groves 1834
[url]internetarchivebooks; internetarchivebookdrive; bebelafka; americana; opensource[/url]
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby cwconrad » October 23rd, 2012, 4:46 pm

It would appear that you have come to the B-Greek Forum with the intention of preaching and teaching, not of learning or exchanging information with other members of this community. You need to understand that we don’t preach here -- we come from a very broad range of faith-perspectives and prefer to discuss not matters concerning faith but rather matters concerning the Greek text of the Biblical books and how that text is to be understood as a Greek text.

You write, “I am not trying to offend you, but apparently you seem to know more than those who have written subjects on the word ῥύομαι, so I would, being a novice, admonish you to read carefully the exegesis of ρύω or rather ῥύομαι. “

I’m not really sure what you’re trying to do. You admit you’re a novice, but in the capacity of a novice you “admonish” Barry to read carefully “the exegesis of ρύω or rather ῥύομαι. “ Did you perhaps mean “the etymology of ρύω or rather ῥύομαι”? I assure you that Barry doesn’t need that “admonition.” His competence in Greek, his qualifications as a teacher, and his discernment of significant distinctions in Greek texts is well-respected in this community.

What I find astonishing here is the authority you attribute to a Greek and English Dictionary published by John Groves in 1834. With regard to etymology a very great amount of water has passed under the bridge since 1834. Serious students and scholars now regard two lexica as authoritative reference works for the study of the Greek Bible: one is “BDAG” A Greek - English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, Third Edition revised and edited by Fredrick William Danker. University of Chicago Press, 2000; the other is “LSJ” A Greek-English Lexicon, Ninth Edition with a Revised Supplement by Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, Henry Stuart Jones and Roderick McKenzie (Aug 1, 1996).

Neither of these two lexicographical authorities recognize any linkage between the two verbal roots ῥεϝ/ῥοϝ/ῥυ “flow/stream” and ἐρῠ- ῥῡ- from ser̆- srū-, cogn. with Lat. seruare, v. οὖρος ‘guard’, ἔρυμα, ἐρυμνοίς. It is true that there are two nouns derived from these roots that look very much alike but are different in that one of them has a long-vowel υ while the other has a short-vowel υ· :
(1) from ῥεϝ/ῥοϝ/ῥυ derives ῥύσις [ῠ], εως, ἡ, (ῥέω) flow -- note the short vowel and the acute accent --
(2) from ἐρῠ- ῥῡ-derives ῥῦσις, εως, ἡ, ( ἐρύω (b)) deliverance

The verb in Matthew 6:13 is ῥῦσαι, 2 sg. aorist imperative middle of ῥύομαι, “save, rescue, deliver, preserve.” It has nothing to do with the verb ῥέω or a verbal root meaning "flow."
Carl W. Conrad
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 23rd, 2012, 6:45 pm

Here are the words for save or rescue: σωτηρίας deliverance rescue, salvatίon, saving
δικάζω δίκαιος δικαίως fair, right δικαίωση vindicate (as vindication), in the sense 'deliver, rescue'
σωτηρίας deliverance rescue, salvatίon, saving
εθεραπεύσεν θεραπεύω salvage, heal, doctor, treat, remedy, cure, heal, salve; archaic term for salvage; save from destruction (οr rescue)
έλεύθεροι έλεύθερωνω unchain, unloose, deliver, free, set free, release
διατηρώ διετηρει keep, kept, hold onto; save, store
συντηρεω συντηρήστε preserver, conserve, maintainer, saves, or defends, from destruction, injury, or decay; One who makes preserves of fruit, subsist exist, live; stay alive
σώζω σωσαι σώσει θεραπεύω, αλοίφω, περισώζω salved; save from ruin, destruction, or harm, deliver from, rescue, salve, save

Hmmnnn, seems as though we have an αδιέξοδος here? ??? Are you saying you do not recognize THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.?
Are you saying you do not recognize Plat. Middle Liddell or Homer, Odyssey [95] or Pausanias, nor Greek Anthology, Volume III (ed. W. R. Paton) nor Heraclitus of Ephesus ?

ῥύσις a flowing, flow, Plat. Middle Liddell ῥύσις, -εως, ἡ ῥῦσαιη
Homer, Odyssey [95] and they draw forth wine, and waste it in insolent wise. book 14, card 72: ... φαίνηται ἄριστος. αὐτὰρ ἐγὼ σῦς τάσδε φυλάσσω τε ῥύομαί τε, καί σφι συῶν τὸν ἄριστον ἐῢ κρίνας
Pausanias, Description of Greece book 4, chapter 20: ... εὖτε τράγος πίνῃσι Νέδης ἑλικόρροον ὕδωρ, οὐκέτι Μεσσήνην ῥύομαι: σχεδόθεν γὰρ ὄλεθρος. εἰσὶ δὲ αἱ πηγαὶ Whensoever a he-goat drinks of Neda's winding stream,
Greek Anthology, Volume III (ed. W. R. Paton) book 9, chapter 764: ... δ᾽ ἀστυφέλικτον ἄγω χάριν ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτοὺς δμῶας μυιοσόβου ῥύομαι ἀτμενίης. to draw to oneself

Greek philosopher Heraclitus of Ephesus (c.535 – c.475 BC) who stated:” Πάντα ῥεῖ “transliterated as “Panta rhéi”, just meaning “ Everything flows" in the sense that everything flows and changes and therefore there is no permanent reality except the reality of change.
Heraclitus (540-480 B.C.) - Understanding Philosophy

Etymology of the Greek word rhuthmos (ῥυθμός, ῥυϑμός) the Greek word rhuthmos, ῥυθμός, ῥυϑμός
derived from the Greek word rheo, ῥεω, ῥέω derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *sreu- Derivations in other languages
Latin rhythmos; Greek rheuma © 2008 myetymology.com

ῥύομαι. I. to draw to oneself, i. e. draw out of danger, to rescue, save, deliver,
Hom., Hes., etc.; ῥ. τινα ὑπὲκ θανάτου, ὑπὲκ κακοῦ to save from . . , Hom.;—so c.
www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0

ῥέω ῥυήσομαι ἐρρύηκα ἐρρύην flow fließe, ströme nm. stream, river, current, flow, torrent; electricity, type of energy which results from the existence of charged particles v. flow, stream, flock, pour, rain heavily
http://www.dramata.com/GREEK_Core_verbs_stem_vowel.pdf
http://www.gottwein.de/GrGr/Gr.Stf.10p.php

Αρχαία ῥύσασθαι (ῥύομαι = λυτρώνω, σώζω). spring up; to salve
lyk-kontar.pie.sch.gr/03_arxaia_theor_B_03.doc
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby MAubrey » October 23rd, 2012, 8:20 pm

Yes, Roy, we all are quite aware of all this data and these clauses with these verbs. We're all trying to tell you that they don't mean what you think they mean. Barry is right. You are wrong. Asserting the same thing over and over again doesn't change that.

And as Carl has said, if you're here to preach at everyone rather than learn and dialogue, then you're in the wrong place.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 24th, 2012, 9:23 am

MAubrey wrote:Yes, Roy, we all are quite aware of all this data and these clauses with these verbs. We're all trying to tell you that they don't mean what you think they mean. Barry is right. You are wrong. Asserting the same thing over and over again doesn't change that.

And as Carl has said, if you're here to preach at everyone rather than learn and dialogue, then you're in the wrong place.

I humbly beg your pardon, the word is in the CODEX is all caps, no puncuation, and is spelled ῥῦσαι. It is NOT spelled ῥύομαι.

Mat 6:13 λεταιϲ ημων και μη ειϲενεγκηϲ η μαϲ ειϲ πιραϲμο αλλα ρυϲαι ημαϲ απο του πονηρου :
Codex Sinaiticus ΡΥΣΑΙ
also CODICEM ALEXANDRINUM ῥύσις;

Note on Page 159 of THE GREEK NEW TESTAMENT, FOURTH REVISED EDITION 2007, WITH DICTIONARY, ῥῦσις: εως F. FLOW΄

For the subst. ῥῦσις cf. Kaibel 2001 Roman age.
Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, see e.g. P Giss I. 79"'12(c. A.D. 117) εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
and the other exx. collected by the editor add. The noun seems to have a different meaning in P Bad 15:341 (i/B.C.) ειπε δε τη αδελφη μοι την ρυσιν ινα χειρογραφησω. For its use in connexion with the " flow" of blood, as in Mk 5 25, Lk 8 43, 44; see Vett. Val. p. 282 30
THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER
NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby cwconrad » October 24th, 2012, 10:03 am

Roy Fredrick wrote:For the subst. ῥῦσις cf. Kaibel 2001 Roman age.
Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, see e.g. P Giss I. 79"'12(c. A.D. 117) εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
and the other exx. collected by the editor add. The noun seems to have a different meaning in P Bad 15:341 (i/B.C.) ειπε δε τη αδελφη μοι την ρυσιν ινα χειρογραφησω. For its use in connexion with the " flow" of blood, as in Mk 5 25, Lk 8 43, 44; see Vett. Val. p. 282 30
THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER
NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.


If you'll note the accentuation, you'll see what I indicated in my previous message, that there are two different words here, one with a long υ and a circumflex accent, ῥῦσις, meaning “deliverance”, the other with a short υ and an acute accent, ῥύσις, meaning “flow”. You have ignored this difference. And, as Heraclitus (fragment 48) noted with regard to βίος ("life") and βιός ("bow"), a difference in accentuation can be a life-death difference.

LSJ:
ῥῦσις, εως, ἡ, ( ἐρύω (b)) deliverance, θανάτου from death, Epigr.Gr.200 (Cos), LxxSi.51.9.

ῥύσις [ῠ], εως, ἡ, (ῥέω) flow, ὕδατος Pl.Lg.944b; εις τὸ κοιλότατον ἡ ῥ Arist.Mete.355b17; opp. ἄμπωτις, ib. 366a19; ἐκ ῥινῶν αἵματος -ιες Hp.Aph.3.27; κοιλίης ib. 2.14; [ἐλαίου], i.e. yield of oil, Thphr.HP4.14.10, PRev.Laws60.16 (iii b.c.); φλεβῶν Arist.PA668a11; of fire, Thphr.Ign.54; shedding, τριχῶν Dsc.2.120, Gal.19.431; used for γονόρροια, LxxLe.15.2 sq.
b. fig., τῆς λέξεως D.H.Dem.40, cf. Comp.23.
II. course of a river, stream, ποταμὸς ποιεῖται τὴν ῥ. Plb.2.16.6, cf. D.H.1.9, D.S.4.35, Str.6.2.4.
III. Math., ῥύσει σημείου συνίσταται γραμμή Ph.1.23, [στιγμῆς] ῥύσιν φασὶν εἶναι οἱ γεωμέτραι τὴν γραμμήν (cf. ῥυΐσκομαι, ῥέω i. 5 b) Iamb.in Nic.p.57 P., cf. Plot.3.7.3, Procl.in Euc.p.97 F.; οἷον ἄστρου ῥ. Arist.Mu.395b8.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Roy Fredrick » October 24th, 2012, 3:37 pm

cwconrad wrote:
Roy Fredrick wrote:For the subst. ῥῦσις cf. Kaibel 2001 Roman age.
Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, see e.g. P Giss I. 79"'12(c. A.D. 117) εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
and the other exx. collected by the editor add. The noun seems to have a different meaning in P Bad 15:341 (i/B.C.) ειπε δε τη αδελφη μοι την ρυσιν ινα χειρογραφησω. For its use in connexion with the " flow" of blood, as in Mk 5 25, Lk 8 43, 44; see Vett. Val. p. 282 30
THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT ILLUSTRATED FROM THE PAPYRI AND OTHER
NON-LITERARY SOURCES BY JAMES HOPE MOULTON, D.D., D.Theol.


If you'll note the accentuation, you'll see what I indicated in my previous message, that there are two different words here, one with a long υ and a circumflex accent, ῥῦσις, meaning “deliverance”, the other with a short υ and an acute accent, ῥύσις, meaning “flow”. You have ignored this difference. And, as Heraclitus (fragment 48) noted with regard to βίος ("life") and βιός ("bow"), a difference in accentuation can be a life-death difference.

LSJ:
ῥῦσις, εως, ἡ, ( ἐρύω (b)) deliverance, θανάτου from death, Epigr.Gr.200 (Cos), LxxSi.51.9.

ῥύσις [ῠ], εως, ἡ, (ῥέω) flow, ὕδατος Pl.Lg.944b; εις τὸ κοιλότατον ἡ ῥ Arist.Mete.355b17; opp. ἄμπωτις, ib. 366a19; ἐκ ῥινῶν αἵματος -ιες Hp.Aph.3.27; κοιλίης ib. 2.14; [ἐλαίου], i.e. yield of oil, Thphr.HP4.14.10, PRev.Laws60.16 (iii b.c.); φλεβῶν Arist.PA668a11; of fire, Thphr.Ign.54; shedding, τριχῶν Dsc.2.120, Gal.19.431; used for γονόρροια, LxxLe.15.2 sq.
b. fig., τῆς λέξεως D.H.Dem.40, cf. Comp.23.
II. course of a river, stream, ποταμὸς ποιεῖται τὴν ῥ. Plb.2.16.6, cf. D.H.1.9, D.S.4.35, Str.6.2.4.
III. Math., ῥύσει σημείου συνίσταται γραμμή Ph.1.23, [στιγμῆς] ῥύσιν φασὶν εἶναι οἱ γεωμέτραι τὴν γραμμήν (cf. ῥυΐσκομαι, ῥέω i. 5 b) Iamb.in Nic.p.57 P., cf. Plot.3.7.3, Procl.in Euc.p.97 F.; οἷον ἄστρου ῥ. Arist.Mu.395b8.
It seems you have ignored the word in the CODEX which is all caps, no accentuation, and is spelled ΡΥΣΑΙ. It is NOT spelled ῥύομαι. Mat 6:13 λεταιϲ ημων και μη ειϲενεγκηϲ η μαϲ ειϲ πιραϲμο αλλα ρυϲαι ημαϲ απο του πονηρου :
Codex Sinaiticus ΡΥΣΑΙ
also CODICEM ALEXANDRINUM ρυσις

If you will NOTICE the accentuation by Moulton and also see .P Giss I. 79 iii 12 c. A.D. 117
Griechische Papyri zu Giessen I. Edd. O. Eger, E. Kornemann, and P. M. Meyer. Leipzig, 1910-12. Perseus Duke Databank of Documentary Papyri.Page 565 ῥύσις very common of the "flow " or "yield" of wine at the vintage, εαν δε ο θεος επιτρεφη πολλην ῥύσιν [εσεσθα] εις ετους, ταχα δια την εσομε[νην ευ] ωνιαν του γενηματος αθυμη[σουσι οι γ] εουχοι
Seems as though it would be the life of Greek rheuma which is the flowing water of life

Etymology of the Greek word rhuthmos (ῥυθμός, ῥυϑμός) the Greek word rhuthmos, ῥυθμός, ῥυϑμός
derived from the Greek word rheo, ῥεω, ῥέω derived from the Proto-Indo-European root *sreu- Derivations in other languages
Latin rhythmos; Greek rheuma © 2008 myetymology.com
1Ch 25:5 All these were the sons of Heman the king's seer in the words of God, to lift up the horn.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby cwconrad » October 24th, 2012, 6:13 pm

I had thought you were relying upon a supposed single verb bearing both meanings, namely "flow" and "protect." The evidence is there for the two different verbs from two different roots, even if one wants to rely upon an unaccented form ΡΥΣΑΙ as form in the MS of Codex Alexandrinus. That doesn't really resolve the issue about Mt 6:13, however, The attested form of the aorist stem of the verb ῥέω is ῥεύσα-

BDAG: "aor. impv. 3 pl. ῥευσάτωσαν SSol 4:16; ptc. gen. sg. ῥεύσαντος (Just., D. 67, 2)."

LSJ: " aor. ἔρρευσα Ar.Eq.526 (anap.), Hp.Loc.Hom.11, Int.23, Mosch.3.33, AP5.32 (Parmen.), Plb.5.15.7 (ἀπ-), Paus.5.7.4, etc."

The 2 sg. aorist middle imperative from ῥέω should be ῥεὐσαι (the 2 sg. aorist active imperative would be ῥεῦσον.

The form we have in Mt 6:13 is ῥῦσαι -- from the verb ῥύομαι.
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Re: Mat 6:13 Who is addressed?

Postby Alan Patterson » October 24th, 2012, 6:21 pm

May I commend the moderators for their patience!
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