1 Peter 5:3

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1 Peter 5:3

Postby Justin Cofer » October 20th, 2012, 2:26 pm

I have been reading the Greek NT from my UBS Greek Reader edition. I came upon First Peter 5:3 and had a question about τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου. My question is particularly about the genitive. Syntactically, how should the genitive be classified? My guess would be a subjective genitive. Thank you.
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 21st, 2012, 8:21 pm

Please supply your real name -- we don't allow anonymous posting here. If you supply it, a moderator will update your info so that is shows in your signature. Secondly, may the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 5:29 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Please supply your real name -- we don't allow anonymous posting here. If you supply it, a moderator will update your info so that is shows in your signature. Secondly, may the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


[1 Pet 5:3] μηδ’ ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου·

Could it be that "τυποι του ποιμνιου" is the predicate nominative of "γινομενοι"?
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby cwconrad » October 22nd, 2012, 5:33 am

David Lim wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Please supply your real name -- we don't allow anonymous posting here. If you supply it, a moderator will update your info so that is shows in your signature. Secondly, may the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


[1 Pet 5:3] μηδ’ ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου·

Could it be that "τυποι του ποιμνιου" is the predicate nominative of "γινομενοι"?


Yes, it could -- but the question was about the genitive τοῦ ποιμνίου.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 5:44 am

cwconrad wrote:
David Lim wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Please supply your real name -- we don't allow anonymous posting here. If you supply it, a moderator will update your info so that is shows in your signature. Secondly, may the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


[1 Pet 5:3] μηδ’ ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου·

Could it be that "τυποι του ποιμνιου" is the predicate nominative of "γινομενοι"?


Yes, it could -- but the question was about the genitive τοῦ ποιμνίου.


Well I thought that Barry didn't take it the way I did because he said "objective genitive", I assume of "γινομενοι". Did I misinterpret you, Barry?
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby cwconrad » October 22nd, 2012, 7:36 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote: ... may the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


David Lim wrote:[1 Pet 5:3] μηδ’ ὡς κατακυριεύοντες τῶν κλήρων ἀλλὰ τύποι γινόμενοι τοῦ ποιμνίου·

Could it be that "τυποι του ποιμνιου" is the predicate nominative of "γινομενοι"?


cwconrad wrote:Yes, it could -- but the question was about the genitive τοῦ ποιμνίου.


David Lim wrote:Well I thought that Barry didn't take it the way I did because he said "objective genitive", I assume of "γινομενοι". Did I misinterpret you, Barry?


Well, we should let Barry answer for himself; he may indeed have been referring to the genitive τῶν κλήρων as the genitive complement of κατακυριεύοντες or he may have been referring to τοῦ ποιμνίου as the genitive dependent on τύποι. I don't see how he could possibly have been taking it ποιμνίου as a genitive complement of γινόμενοι.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby Justin Cofer » October 22nd, 2012, 2:36 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:May the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


Thanks for the reply. So, τύποι ... τοῦ ποιμνίου is functioning as the predicate nominative of γινόμενοι, and τοῦ ποιμνίου is an objective genitive because it functions semantically as the direct object of the verbal idea implicit in the noun (τύποι). Correct?
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby Barry Hofstetter » October 22nd, 2012, 8:10 pm

Justin Cofer wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:May the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


Thanks for the reply. So, τύποι ... τοῦ ποιμνίου is functioning as the predicate nominative of γινόμενοι, and τοῦ ποιμνίου is an objective genitive because it functions semantically as the direct object of the verbal idea implicit in the noun (τύποι). Correct?


That's more or less what I intended to say. I would phrase it that τύποι all by itself is the predicate nominative and that τοῦ ποιμνίου is the objective genitive, not the entire phrase as pred. nom. Again, it wouldn't kill me if we were to decide what we should call the genitive τοῦ ποιμνίου something else. It's clear what it means.
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby cwconrad » October 23rd, 2012, 7:45 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Justin Cofer wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:May the Lord protect us from the multiplication of genitives! :D But if someone put a sword to my throat and made me choose, I would say some type (!) of objective genitive, since it really means examples that the flock are to look toward or emulate.


Thanks for the reply. So, τύποι ... τοῦ ποιμνίου is functioning as the predicate nominative of γινόμενοι, and τοῦ ποιμνίου is an objective genitive because it functions semantically as the direct object of the verbal idea implicit in the noun (τύποι). Correct?


That's more or less what I intended to say. I would phrase it that τύποι all by itself is the predicate nominative and that τοῦ ποιμνίου is the objective genitive, not the entire phrase as pred. nom. Again, it wouldn't kill me if we were to decide what we should call the genitive τοῦ ποιμνίου something else. It's clear what it means.


I think personally that the most important thing is Barry's last sentence: "It's clear what it means." Understanding the meaning of a standard formulation like τύποι τοῦ ποιμνίου precedes the endeavor to explain how such a construction actually works. I wouldn't call this an "objective genitive" because I don't really think that τύπος in this instance is a verbal noun. I agree that the sense of it must be something like "models for the congregation to emulate," but I rather doubt that the metaphorical verbal foundation for this Greek noun (τυμπάνω, "stamp, impress, make an impression") is anywhere near the surface of the author's or reader's consciousness. We have often noted the futility of efforts to categorize all the ways that adnominal genitive expressions are used; they are as numerous as English ways of attaching prepositional phrases with "of" to nouns or as English ways of hyphenating or linking two nouns to form combination nouns. I don't know the preferred terminology for this, but it's easy to see that this usage of an adnominal genitive in Greek is a structural combination and not really a combination bearing a specific semantic relationship between the nouns involved. So, what kind of a genitive is τοῦ ποιμνίου in τύποι τοῦ ποιμνίου? The Greek phrase is simply an adnominal genitive; the many, many names given to this construction by grammarians who are more concerned with how to carry it over into English won't tell you anything about what the Greek construction "in and of itself" means. I think that the most fascinating of all of Wallace's many adnominal genitives is the "aporetic genitive." This always puts me in mind of the Abbot & Costello baseball routine, "Who's on first, what's on second, and I don't know who's on third." -- calling an adnominal genitive an "aporetic genitive" is as good as calling it an "I don't know what kind of genitive it is genitive." Enough that we discern instantly or quickly guess what the Greek phrase must mean. Explaining it is harder.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
… ἐπειδὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἠξίους
πίνειν, συνεκποτέ’ ἐστί σοι καὶ τὴν τρύγα Aristophanes, Plutus 1085
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Re: 1 Peter 5:3

Postby Justin Cofer » October 23rd, 2012, 3:18 pm

thanks for your reply and explanation....
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