Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

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Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 22nd, 2012, 8:05 am

Mark 14:60 wrote:Mark 14:60 καὶ ἀναστὰς ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς εἰς μέσον ἐπηρώτησεν τὸν Ἰησοῦν λέγων · οὐκ ἀποκρίνῃ οὐδὲν τί οὗτοί σου καταμαρτυροῦσιν;

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer? What is it that they testify against you?” (NRSV)


David Lim wrote:By the way, is it possible that the last question is "Why do these testify against you?" instead of "What do these testify against you?"


Good question, and it deserves its own thread. Any takers?

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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby cwconrad » October 22nd, 2012, 2:22 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Mark 14:60 wrote:Mark 14:60 καὶ ἀναστὰς ὁ ἀρχιερεὺς εἰς μέσον ἐπηρώτησεν τὸν Ἰησοῦν λέγων · οὐκ ἀποκρίνῃ οὐδὲν τί οὗτοί σου καταμαρτυροῦσιν;

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Have you no answer? What is it that they testify against you?” (NRSV)


David Lim wrote:By the way, is it possible that the last question is "Why do these testify against you?" instead of "What do these testify against you?"


Good question, and it deserves its own thread. Any takers?

Stephen


I must confess that I find attractive this understanding this τί as a "Why?" -- "What's the point of their bringing these accusations against you?" It's certainly asking for an explanation of the charges -- it can't be a mere request for a restatement of the content of the accusations, can it?
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Scott Lawson » October 22nd, 2012, 5:22 pm

Isn't the question out of desperation? If Jesus says nothing their testimony is valueless since they could not agree. He no doubt hopes Jesus will explain and condemn himself. It seems to me that both "what" and "why" could be used to spur him to comment but why could open up counter charges as to why they are meeting illegally in the middle of the night. Would the high priest open himself up to such a possible attack? FWIW,"what" seems more likely to me than "why."
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 8:21 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:Isn't the question out of desperation? If Jesus says nothing their testimony is valueless since they could not agree. He no doubt hopes Jesus will explain and condemn himself. It seems to me that both "what" and "why" could be used to spur him to comment but why could open up counter charges as to why they are meeting illegally in the middle of the night. Would the high priest open himself up to such a possible attack? FWIW,"what" seems more likely to me than "why."


I believe that we can assume that the high-priest was "above" such "possible counter-attacks", and thus would not be "afraid" of asking any question at all. Therefore I did wonder whether it should be "why" instead, for the same reason as Carl, though I did notice that LSJ lists that particular instance as one where "τι" is the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν". I do suppose it is possible that he might indeed be asking for clarification from Jesus himself, but are there any other possible reasons that translations have taken it as "what"? None of them that I checked even gave "why" as an alternative, and I'm curious as to why.
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Scott Lawson » October 22nd, 2012, 9:21 pm

David,
I'm not confident in my understanding of grammar but it seems to me that σου is the direct object of καταματυρεω (testify against) and that τί occupies the place of...? Questions move constituents around in the sentence and it leaves me scratching my head.
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby David Lim » October 22nd, 2012, 10:15 pm

Scott Lawson wrote:David,
I'm not confident in my understanding of grammar but it seems to me that σου is the direct object of καταματυρεω (testify against) and that τί occupies the place of...? Questions move constituents around in the sentence and it leaves me scratching my head.


I think "σου" is called a genitive complement of "καταμαρτυρουσιν" and not a direct object, though in many cases I prefer to think of compound verbs as quite equivalent to the root verb with the preposition, such as "μαρτυρουσιν κατα σου".
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Scott Lawson » October 22nd, 2012, 11:11 pm

David Lim wrote:I think "σου" is called a genitive complement of "καταμαρτυρουσιν" and not a direct object, though in many cases I prefer to think of compound verbs as quite equivalent to the root verb with the preposition, such as "μαρτυρουσιν κατα σου".


Doesn't breaking the verb apart like that potentially transform it from a transitive verb to an intransitive verb and muddy the waters rather than clarify?
Also, doesn't a complement of a predicate include direct objects?
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Scott Lawson » October 23rd, 2012, 12:05 am

David Lim wrote:though I did notice that LSJ lists that particular instance as one where "τι" is the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν".


How does identifying "τι" as the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν" move us closer to determining whether it means "what or "why?"
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby David Lim » October 23rd, 2012, 3:13 am

Scott Lawson wrote:
David Lim wrote:I think "σου" is called a genitive complement of "καταμαρτυρουσιν" and not a direct object, though in many cases I prefer to think of compound verbs as quite equivalent to the root verb with the preposition, such as "μαρτυρουσιν κατα σου".


Doesn't breaking the verb apart like that potentially transform it from a transitive verb to an intransitive verb and muddy the waters rather than clarify?


Firstly, "μαρτυρειν" can be used transitively (see 1 John 5:10). But whether such an understanding of this compound verb (I didn't say all) clarifies anything or not, I won't know.

Scott Lawson wrote:Also, doesn't a complement of a predicate include direct objects?


I was merely saying that I thought others generally do not use "direct object" to refer to a "genitive complement". I myself find more satisfactory that the case is explained by the preposition, as is often the case with compound verbs, rather than calling it a "genitive complement", but anyway I wasn't concerned with terminology as with the meaning.

Scott Lawson wrote:
David Lim wrote:though I did notice that LSJ lists that particular instance as one where "τι" is the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν".


How does identifying "τι" as the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν" move us closer to determining whether it means "what or "why?"


If "τι" was the object of the verb, it can only mean "what". If however "καταμαρτυρουσιν" did not have a direct object, then "τι" must mean "why".
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Re: Mark 14:60 τί what or why?

Postby Scott Lawson » October 23rd, 2012, 2:22 pm

David Lim wrote:Firstly, "μαρτυρειν" can be used transitively (see 1 John 5:10).


I presume you are pointing to μεμαρτύρηκεν which is perfect and stative and therefore unlikely to be transitive. Right?

David Lim wrote:though I did notice that LSJ lists that particular instance as one where "τι" is the object of the verb "καταμαρτυρουσιν".


I'm not seeing what you evidently noticed in LSJ regarding "τι." Are you perhaps confusing the genitive τινός (of someone) with "τι?"

Here's hoping that you can clear up my confusion.

καταμαρτυ^ρέω ,
A. bear witness against, τινος Antipho 2.4.10, D.19.120, 29.9, Mitteis Chr.31v33 (ii B.C.), etc.; “κατά τινος” D.28.3, etc.: c. acc. rei, “ψευδῆ κ. τινός” Id.45.46 (Docum.), 29.2, Is.5.12, cf. Ev.Matt.26.62: abs., “αὐτὸ τὸ ψήφισμα τῆς βουλῆς—μαρτυρήσει” Lys.13.28:—Pass., have evidence given against one, “μὴ πιστῶς καταμαρτυρηθείς” Antipho2.4.7; κ. ὑπὸ τοῦ βίου τοῦ ἑαυτοῦ to be convicted, Aeschin. 1.90.
2. Pass., of evidence, to be given against one, “ἃ καταμαρτυρεῖται αὐτοῦ” Is.5.25, cf. 6.15: abs., D.29.55.
II. assert concerning, “οὐδὲν κ. τῶν οὐ παρόντων” Plot.5.5.13.
III. Astrol., exercise malign influence over, 'aspect', Vett.Val.104.2.
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