To or about?

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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.

Re: To or about?

Postby Stephen Carlson » November 23rd, 2012, 5:51 am

Iver Larsen wrote:Do you know which font is used at that link? I cannot read it in my browser. Also it seems to end at capter 68.


I think it's just a standard Unicode encoding and can support various fonts. The style code lists Palatino Linotype, Gentium, Vusillus Old Face, Code2000, Arial Unicode MS, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Athena, Cardo. All of these have been around for quite a while, so the page may have been created at a time when font interoperability was poorly understood..

Sorry, I posted a link to the First Apology (which quotes the same Genesis passage but with Μωυσῆς ... εἶπεν), not the Dialogue, the former indeed having 68 chapters. The Dialogue is at: http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/just ... yphong.htm

Iver Larsen wrote:These examples have the definite article except if the name is also the name of the book like David. The article is not present in Rom 11:2 and Elijah is not the name of a book/scroll. This bothers me.


Yes, and neither is Judah the name of a book/scroll for Justin, Diag. 120.3.
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Re: To or about?

Postby Ken M. Penner » November 23rd, 2012, 9:16 am

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:Here's the Shir HaShirim Rabbah reference (in Soncino's translation it's 1:38):
ודכוותיה כתיב באליהו שנאמר (מלכים א יט) ויאמר קנא קנאתי לה' אלהי ישראל כי עזבו בריתך בני ישראל


Soncino's rendering is "It is said of Elijah," although "in Elijah" seems more likely.

That page of Shir HaShirim Rabbah is available at http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/heb ... 453_15.pdf
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Re: To or about?

Postby Ken M. Penner » November 23rd, 2012, 9:28 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Iver Larsen wrote:Do you know which font is used at that link? I cannot read it in my browser. Also it seems to end at capter 68.


I think it's just a standard Unicode encoding and can support various fonts. The style code lists Palatino Linotype, Gentium, Vusillus Old Face, Code2000, Arial Unicode MS, TITUS Cyberbit Basic, Athena, Cardo. All of these have been around for quite a while, so the page may have been created at a time when font interoperability was poorly understood.


You may need to manually change the page encoding to UTF-8 in your browser. My Firefox tried to render it as Cyrillic.
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Re: To or about?

Postby David Lim » November 23rd, 2012, 11:57 am

Iver Larsen wrote:Do you know which font is used at that link? I cannot read it in my browser. Also it seems to end at capter 68.

I also couldn't see anything at first. Go to View -> Character Encoding -> Unicode (UTF-8). Then it should display correctly.
I also see only 68 chapters. Stephen, isn't the reference to Dialogue instead of Apology? Thanks!
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Re: To or about?

Postby Stephen Carlson » November 23rd, 2012, 12:49 pm

Ken M. Penner wrote:You may need to manually change the page encoding to UTF-8 in your browser. My Firefox tried to render it as Cyrillic.


Interesting. I was using Chrome and didn't have the problem.
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Re: To or about?

Postby Stephen Carlson » November 23rd, 2012, 12:50 pm

David Lim wrote:I also see only 68 chapters. Stephen, isn't the reference to Dialogue instead of Apology? Thanks!


It was, and I found and posted the link to the right text.
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Re: To or about?

Postby David Lim » November 23rd, 2012, 11:37 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lim wrote:I also see only 68 chapters. Stephen, isn't the reference to Dialogue instead of Apology? Thanks!


It was, and I found and posted the link to the right text.

Oh sorry! I must have missed the third page of posts.
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Re: To or about?

Postby David Lim » November 24th, 2012, 12:58 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Iver Larsen wrote:
Iver Larsen wrote:These examples have the definite article except if the name is also the name of the book like David. The article is not present in Rom 11:2 and Elijah is not the name of a book/scroll. This bothers me.


Yes, and neither is Judah the name of a book/scroll for Justin, Diag. 120.3.

The problem is that that quote from Justin can likewise be taken to mean "therefore indeed [he] speaks with regard to Judah, ...". So in my opinion the quote can't be used as evidence for either hypothesis. It would be good if there was an example where the word used to reference a writing is not directly related to the passage quoted.
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Re: To or about?

Postby Evan Blackmore » November 24th, 2012, 5:43 am

David Lim wrote:It would be good if there was an example where the word used to reference a writing is not directly related to the passage quoted.


I'm sure there are lots of better examples among the innumerable ancient Homeric citations, but Diodorus 4.85.6, narrating the story of Orion, may help:

περὶ οὗ καὶ ὁ ποιητὴς Ὅμηρος ἐν τῇ Νεκυίᾳ μιμνησκόμενός φησι

τὸν δὲ μέτ᾽ Ὠρίωνα πελώριον εἰσενόησα
θῆρας ὁμοῦ εἰλεῦντα κατ᾽ ἀσφοδελὸν λειμῶνα,
οὓς αὐτὸς κατέπεφνεν ἐν οἰοπόλοισιν ὄρεσσι,
χερσὶν ἔχων ῥόπαλον παγχάλκεον, αἰὲν ἀαγές.


Here I very much doubt whether ἐν τῇ Νεκυίᾳ could be read as "with regard to the Nekuia" (Orion, not the Nekuia, is the topic in the spotlight). But of course it's useless looking for any passage where ἐν can be construed in one and only one way. This whole thread beautifully illustrates Moulton's famous remark about ἐν being the "maid of all work" of the NT.

Remember, by the way, that the form ἐν Νεκυίᾳ (without the article) is also used (as noted above from Sanday & Headlam).
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Re: To or about?

Postby Evan Blackmore » November 24th, 2012, 6:49 am

And here’s another, Aristotle, Historia animalium 9.22.2:

Ἕτερον δὲ γένος ἀετοῦ ἐστὶν ὃ πλάγγος καλεῖται, δεύτερος μεγέθει καὶ ῥώμῃ· οἰκεῖ δὲ βήσσας καὶ ἄγκη καὶ λίμνας, ἐπικαλεῖται δὲ νηττοφόνος καὶ μορφνός· οὗ καὶ Ὅμηρος μέμνηται ἐν τῇ τοῦ Πριάμου ἐξόδῳ.


Aristotle isn't saying anything about Priam at all; he's talking about a kind of eagle.
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