μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby David Lim » January 22nd, 2013, 10:45 pm

Tony Pope wrote:
David Lim wrote:Can I suggest the problem is not with "μακροθυμεῖ" but with "ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς"? I think that "ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς" here means "over them", so "καὶ μακροθυμεῖ ἐπ᾽ αὐτοῖς" means "and is he patient over them?", which implies "and is he patient [with those who persecute them]?"


The usage elsewhere is that the people ἐπὶ whom one μακροθυμεῖ are the people who are causing you grief. So if you want it to mean "Is he patient with their oppressors", the αὐτοῖς surely has to refer directly to the oppressors not his chosen people. Some have taken this line, e.g. Grimm in the Grimm-Thayer lexicon, who suggests that they are referred to "negligently" (=without previous contextual reference) with Sirach 35 in mind. Otherwise, the αὐτοῖς must refer to the chosen people.

Do you mind giving some examples outside of the NT and LXX? I am just not sure that "μακροθυμεῖν ἐπὶ X" must always mean "be patient with X" and not more vaguely "be patient as regards X". Thanks!
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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby Iver Larsen » January 23rd, 2013, 12:48 am

Tony Pope wrote:
Iver Larsen wrote:It seems to me that we two senses. One is being patient in the sense of persevering. The other is patient/forbearing in the sense of feeling compassion with and showing mercy to people who are in a difficult situation.


I think your idea of "compassion" is not far off but I suggest that μακροθυμέω is used with particular reference to the clamouring night and day, and a better gloss might be "to be tolerant of them" (i.e. of their requests). Sirach 29.8, which you mentioned, seems similar in that the previous context warns of the difficulties that a lender may experience in securing the repayment of his loan.
πλὴν ἐπὶ ταπεινῷ μακροθύμησον και ἐπ’ ἐλεημοσύνῇ μὴ παρελκύσῇς αὐτόν.
"Nevertheless be patient with [be tolerant of? be understanding towards?] the penniless, and do not keep them waiting for your charity." (REB)
Despite the fact that English versions start a new paragraph, I feel the πλήν supports a connection to the previous context.


My suggestion for compassion was based on how it is used in Mat 18:26 and 29 as well as in 1 Cor 13:4 and 1 Th 5:14, but it fits Sirach 29:8 as well.
The slave who asked for a grace period to pay back the money was answered by his master having compassion on him. It is not quite the same as tolerance, but close. This slave did not show compassion for his fellow slave. I realize that our word implies a time element which I would see as a grace period, but it could also refer to repeated requests in some contexts.

The context of 1 Cor 13:4 seems to imply more than being tolerant. I am not sure of the semantics of the English word longsuffering. It is difficult to find a good English word.

Unfortunately, I can only read the abstract for the article you mention, and I am not ready to pay 35$ to get it.
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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby Tony Pope » January 24th, 2013, 5:25 pm

David Lim wrote:Do you mind giving some examples outside of the NT and LXX? I am just not sure that "μακροθυμεῖν ἐπὶ X" must always mean "be patient with X" and not more vaguely "be patient as regards X". Thanks!


Sorry, I can't help there, other than mentioning that there are a few examples from Greek patristic writers (Athanasius, Basil of Caesarea, etc) which can be found at the TLG demo site by entering μακροθυμέω and ἐπί in the Advanced Lemma Search. Since you wish to exclude NT and LXX, presumably you wish to exclude patristic writers as well. If someone who has access to TLG can help, ...
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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby Tony Pope » January 24th, 2013, 5:43 pm

Iver Larsen wrote:
Tony Pope wrote:I think your idea of "compassion" is not far off but I suggest that μακροθυμέω is used with particular reference to the clamouring night and day, and a better gloss might be "to be tolerant of them" (i.e. of their requests). Sirach 29.8, which you mentioned, seems similar in that the previous context warns of the difficulties that a lender may experience in securing the repayment of his loan.
πλὴν ἐπὶ ταπεινῷ μακροθύμησον και ἐπ’ ἐλεημοσύνῇ μὴ παρελκύσῇς αὐτόν.
"Nevertheless be patient with [be tolerant of? be understanding towards?] the penniless, and do not keep them waiting for your charity." (REB)
Despite the fact that English versions start a new paragraph, I feel the πλήν supports a connection to the previous context.


My suggestion for compassion was based on how it is used in Mat 18:26 and 29 as well as in 1 Cor 13:4 and 1 Th 5:14, but it fits Sirach 29:8 as well.
The slave who asked for a grace period to pay back the money was answered by his master having compassion on him. It is not quite the same as tolerance, but close. This slave did not show compassion for his fellow slave. I realize that our word implies a time element which I would see as a grace period, but it could also refer to repeated requests in some contexts.

The context of 1 Cor 13:4 seems to imply more than being tolerant. I am not sure of the semantics of the English word longsuffering. It is difficult to find a good English word.

Unfortunately, I can only read the abstract for the article you mention, and I am not ready to pay 35$ to get it.

To tolerate someone's requests and respond to them positively is certainly an act of compassion. I simply feel "compassion" is a bit too generic for this word. I'm not sure there is much context in 1 Cor. 13.4 that helps us to pin down the precise meaning.

As for the article, nor would I pay the $35. But Novum Testamentum being a major NT journal, any university with a sizeable theological faculty ought to have it. I should be shocked if they didn't have it at your alma mater (or even somewhere in the capital of your host country)!
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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby Stephen Carlson » January 24th, 2013, 6:10 pm

Tony Pope wrote:As for the article, nor would I pay the $35. But Novum Testamentum being a major NT journal, any university with a sizeable theological faculty ought to have it. I should be shocked if they didn't have it at your alma mater (or even somewhere in the capital of your host country)!


This is one case where the abstract is pretty clear about what the article does, and the article is pretty focused on the point. There are better things for the $35.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke, New Testament)
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Re: μακροθυμέω Luke 18:7

Postby Iver Larsen » January 25th, 2013, 2:19 am

Tony,

The last three weeks I have been busy in a workshop in Uganda. When I get home, I'll try to read the article at a library.

I agree that "compassion" in itself is too broad. There is definitely a time element. While I looked a bit more on the usage of μακροθυμέω and μακροθυμία in the NT, I wondered whether it would be possible to render them "slow to become angry". In Luke 18:7 that would be close to your "tolerant" with their crying out day and night. The motivation behind the lack or delay of anger/punishment can be described as compassion or maybe empathy.

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