When to supply a verb with a Genitive or Dative

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.

When to supply a verb with a Genitive or Dative

Postby Ken Litwak » January 22nd, 2013, 2:18 am

I am analyzing a translation to revise it potentially. In Rom 1:6 it renders KLHTOI IHSOU, which some translations (ESV, NET) render as "called to belong to Jesus." Rom 1:7 renders KLHTOIS (AGIOIS as "called to be saints." To me that introduces an implicit condition into the phrase that the Greek does not present. It suggests, I think, something like, "You are called to be saints, if you live up to that calling." I think the NASU's rendering "the called of Jesus" for KLHTOI IHSOU and "called as saints," or perhaps, based on p. 149, "the called who are saints," for KLHTOIS (AGIOIS) is better. Wallace (GGBB, 126) treats constructs like that of Rom 1:t as a gen. of agency, so it would be "called by Jesus," though he notes on p. 127 that there are arguments against this translation and that it could instead be a possessive gen., "called to belong to Jesus." I am aware that Greek has verbless clauses where some form of EIMI may be supplied but that is usually between two nominatives, not a nominative and a genitive. The ESV and NET renderings seem to me to go beyond what is appropriate for a translation. What do others thing? Thanks.

Ken Litwak
Adjunct Professor of New Testament
Azusa Pacific University
Ken Litwak
 
Posts: 8
Joined: July 8th, 2011, 4:17 pm

Re: When to supply a verb with a Genitive or Dative

Postby Stephen Carlson » January 22nd, 2013, 1:56 pm

Perhaps people would find it easier to answer if the text were presented:

Rom 1:6-7 wrote:6 ἐν οἷς ἐστε καὶ ὑμεῖς κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, 7 πᾶσιν τοῖς οὖσιν ἐν Ῥώμῃ ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ, κλητοῖς ἁγίοις· χάρις ὑμῖν καὶ εἰρήνη ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς ἡμῶν καὶ κυρίου Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D. (Duke)
Post-Doctoral Fellow, Faculty of Theology, Uppsala
Stephen Carlson
 
Posts: 1804
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Uppsala University

Re: When to supply a verb with a Genitive or Dative

Postby David Lim » January 22nd, 2013, 11:21 pm

Ken Litwak wrote:In Rom 1:6 it renders KLHTOI IHSOU, which some translations (ESV, NET) render as "called to belong to Jesus." Rom 1:7 renders KLHTOIS (AGIOIS as "called to be saints." To me that introduces an implicit condition into the phrase that the Greek does not present. It suggests, I think, something like, "You are called to be saints, if you live up to that calling." I think the NASU's rendering "the called of Jesus" for KLHTOI IHSOU and "called as saints," or perhaps, based on p. 149, "the called who are saints," for KLHTOIS (AGIOIS) is better. Wallace (GGBB, 126) treats constructs like that of Rom 1:t as a gen. of agency, so it would be "called by Jesus," though he notes on p. 127 that there are arguments against this translation and that it could instead be a possessive gen., "called to belong to Jesus." I am aware that Greek has verbless clauses where some form of EIMI may be supplied but that is usually between two nominatives, not a nominative and a genitive.

I would take all three phrases "κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ" and "ἀγαπητοῖς θεοῦ" and "κλητοῖς ἁγίοις" to be the same kind of possessive constructions, describing the same group of people as "called ones who belong to Jesus Christ" and "beloved ones who belong to God" and "holy ones who have been called". I don't think it means "called to be ..." or "called as ...", but to be "a called one of Jesus" does imply to be "called by Jesus".
[Rom 1:6-7] in whom also you are called ones of Jesus Christ; to all the ones who are in Rome, beloved ones of God, called holy ones: Grace and peace be to you from God, our father, and the lord Jesus Christ.
δαυιδ λιμ
David Lim
 
Posts: 874
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: When to supply a verb with a Genitive or Dative

Postby Jason Hare » January 29th, 2013, 12:14 pm

Ken Litwak wrote:I am analyzing a translation to revise it potentially. In Rom 1:6 it renders KLHTOI IHSOU, which some translations (ESV, NET) render as "called to belong to Jesus." Rom 1:7 renders KLHTOIS (AGIOIS as "called to be saints." To me that introduces an implicit condition into the phrase that the Greek does not present. It suggests, I think, something like, "You are called to be saints, if you live up to that calling." I think the NASU's rendering "the called of Jesus" for KLHTOI IHSOU and "called as saints," or perhaps, based on p. 149, "the called who are saints," for KLHTOIS (AGIOIS) is better. Wallace (GGBB, 126) treats constructs like that of Rom 1:t as a gen. of agency, so it would be "called by Jesus," though he notes on p. 127 that there are arguments against this translation and that it could instead be a possessive gen., "called to belong to Jesus." I am aware that Greek has verbless clauses where some form of EIMI may be supplied but that is usually between two nominatives, not a nominative and a genitive. The ESV and NET renderings seem to me to go beyond what is appropriate for a translation. What do others thing? Thanks.

Ken Litwak
Adjunct Professor of New Testament
Azusa Pacific University


Can this have some relation to 1 Corinthians 1:12 (λέγω δὲ τοῦτο ὅτι ἕκαστος ὑμῶν λέγει· Ἐγὼ μέν εἰμι Παύλου, Ἐγὼ δὲ Ἀπολλῶ, Ἐγὼ δὲ Κηφᾶ, Ἐγὼ δὲ Χριστοῦ)? That is, people said that they were "of Paul" or "of Apollo" or "of Cephas" or "of Christ," and it meant that they were followers of these men or members of a group of their adherents. Could not κλητοὶ Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ in this verse mean that they are "called Jesus Christ's followers" in the same sense?
Jason A. Hare
Rehovot, Israel
Jason Hare
 
Posts: 378
Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 5:28 pm
Location: Rehovot, Israel


Return to New Testament

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest