Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

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Jean-Michel Colin
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Joined: August 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm

Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Jean-Michel Colin »

Hello,

my first message here.

It's about Mt 5:48
ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι ὡς ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν.
I'm quite surprised that in several language, τέλειός is translated bu "perfect". It's the case in most common translations in French, English, Spanish, Italian, and a long time ago in the Vulgata as well.

But in German, Luther chose "volkommen", which brings a sens of "accomplished", which seems to me much a better translation, considered that the adjective τέλειός is made after the noun τέλος, that brings the idea of end-goal, purpose. So not the state of being perfect, but the process toward the accomplishment.

Curious to have your understanding...
Jean-Michel Colin
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Joined: August 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm

Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Jean-Michel Colin »

OK. As I understand it, your explanation supports the view of a process with arguments that I had not seen, founded on grammar considerations :
Stephen Hughes wrote: (...) expects that there will be a change. (...) be achieved (...)there is a change involved (...) because the future is often different from what the present is like.
But what about the word τέλειος itself ? Is there, or not, a spatial sense of "remote" (which would to be understood figuratively here) or a time sense as "not yet" ?
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Mt 5:48 wrote: ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι ὡς ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν.
Jean-Michel Colin wrote: So not the state of being perfect, but the process toward the accomplishment.
There are two uses of the adjective τέλειος here one is with the indicative and the other is a future indicative with the sense of an imperative. The meaning with the indicative may be unchanging, but with an imperative is could mean that the one telling them to be prefect expects that there will be a change. The plurality of the indicative may mean that τελειότης can not be achieved alone but in our dealings with others. If we were to take the future indicative with its indicative sense, then that too may be saying that there is a change involved with being τέλειος because the future is often different from what the present is like.

Perhaps it could be exegetically paraphrased as τελειούσθε τῇ κοινωνίᾳ Θεοῦ καὶ ἀλλήλων, τῇ ἀγαθοποιΐᾳ τε καὶ τῇ ἁγιωσύνῃ ὁμοιαζόμενοι τῷ πατρὶ ὑμῶν τῷ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.

I'm not sure in what way the εἶναι/ἔσεσθαι in Matthew 5:48 is different from the γίνεσθαι of the ταῖς δὲ φρεσὶν τέλειοι γίνεσθε "become mature in your thoughts" ("grow into the mind of Christ", "Continue in your walk of faith till you look at the world in the way that Christ would where you are") of 1 Corinthians 14:20.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jean-Michel Colin wrote:But what about the word τέλειος itself ? Is there, or not, a spatial sense of "remote" (which would to be understood figuratively here) or a time sense as "not yet" ?
Are you asking something like, is a perfect person one who has reached the acme of love, holiness and Christian virtue?

It is true that the word itself is related to the word τέλος the most extreme point in a sequence, but theologically speaking reaching the end of a sequence of learning to love, living in forgiveness, living in holiness and and doing good to your neighbour, is infact not at the extremity or end point, but is the very centre of what God intended for us to be.

Language has its contribution to make to our search for God and truth, but God is ultimately beyond linguistic definition - ineffible. So let's look at the bigger picture that the Greek language is trying to express as best as people could make it do.

You will be familiar with the constant tension between science and language. We speak of the sun rising, when in fact it is not rising, the earth is rotating and the sun comes into view. We speak of the evening getting cooler, when in fact heat is being lost. Water is said to fall, when in fact the gravitational field of the earth is attracting it. Water is supposedly running to the ocean, but again it is gravity and the path of least resistance.

Here too, in this adjective τέλειος we find that human language is able to express a measure of truth concerning the process of our becoming more Christian in character and actions, but at the end of the sequence we do not find the final part of the sequence, but rather that the sequence itself is no longer relevent, and the end is not defined by the sequence, but by the state that it then expresses - perfection.

Luther's "volkommen" that you mentioned is part of the sequence, Jerome's "perfect" looks at the end of the sequence when the sequence no longer defines the state. The Greek would agree more with volkommen, but the theology more with perfect, is my understanding.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jean-Michel Colin
Posts: 17
Joined: August 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm

Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Jean-Michel Colin »

Well, three points :
1.
Stephen Hughes wrote: You will be familiar with the constant tension between science and language. We speak of the sun rising, when in fact it is not rising, the earth is rotating and the sun comes into view. We speak of the evening getting cooler, when in fact heat is being lost. Water is said to fall, when in fact the gravitational field of the earth is attracting it. Water is supposedly running to the ocean, but again it is gravity and the path of least resistance.
I'm very sensible to your statement, very well expressed. It's so often that we miss this simple fact that language doesn't describe reality as often or as well as it seems.

2.
Stephen Hughes wrote: Are you asking something like, is a perfect person one who has reached the acme of love, holiness and Christian virtue?
Not exactly.
My approach of the sentence, and beyond of all the scriptures, is primarily :
"what do the writer/reader of the first century means/understands in these words ?"
3.My theological concern here would be in fact closely bind to an anthropological one ! Indeed, as you say,
Stephen Hughes wrote:God is ultimately beyond linguistic definition - ineffible."
(btw, English is my mother language, don't you mean "ineffable" ?)
And obviously God is beyond the humans, and his τελειότης beyond ours.
So how can it be that the greek sentence wants us to be τέλειοι as God himself is τέλειός ?

Or can it be understood as the second member of the sentence qualifying the type of τελειότης that is expected ? That would imply that the conjunction ὡς is more flexible than the English "as", and not to be understood not as "like", but "ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι from/of the τελειότης of ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος, and not from any other τελειότης: not a τελειότης of a human wiseness, nor a psychological constraint -perfectionism- neither that of an unreachable abstract god. Is that grammatically plausible ? How does the Greek language supports such an interpretation ?
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jean-Michel Colin wrote:"what do the writer/reader of the first century means/understands in these words ?"
I think that what you consider to be your fundamental question is what many members on this forum think that they are coming here to find in simply expressed terms.

Of course, as in other languages which are spoken by speakers from a variety of cultural backgrounds and educational levels, in the Greek of the first century, words will mean different things to people from different groups. By reading widely in Greek, one can see how different people and groups express their thoughts in Greek.

It might be useful to discuss for a moment how the learning process influences the way we approach the text:
1) At the beginning stages of learning, Greek does seem to many students to be a language of absolutes that expresses things more clearly than other languages are able to. This is a natural outcome of only knowing a little of the language; if you only know a little, then you can only understand or find a little. Then you go on and find...

2) After that at a later point, when there is just so much information and each form seems to be able to be taken in so many ways, there is a natural desire to find THE one true right answer or interpretation to a verse or passage - something expressible again in absolute terms. Greek becomes a sort of quest for the holy grail - the one true reading that will bring order to the chaos and uncertainty that learning Greek has brought to our reading of the Bible. This is a natural human reaction seen time and again throughout various periods of history in numerous places to control the uncertainty around us and to bring order. But that is not the end of the matter...

3) Later still, you will develop skills and gain experience to handle the natural uncertainty and unknown-ness that goes together with any human language.

My answer to your question was to encourage you to look forward to the third level of the three I have described just here, and to encourage you to begin working with the uncertainties and limitations that we find in reading Greek.
Jean-Michel Colin wrote:I'm very sensible to your statement, very well expressed. It's so often that we miss this simple fact that language doesn't describe reality as often or as well as it seems.
In the examples I gave, language expresses an earlier (obsolete) scientific understanding. I paralleled that to the way that perfection as a goal or a state is being expressed in a lanaguage. The theological understanding of God's relationship to people is not the same as what it used to have to express the relationship that people had to the "gods". You can ask yourself, what is it about the message of the Christian gospel inviting the human beings to fellowship with with Him, the Triune God, who in Himself shows us what true fellowship is, as opposed to the relationships of jealousy, spite and the fear of the reprocusions of hubris if anyone wanted to aspire to get to close to the so called "gods".
Jean-Michel Colin wrote:And obviously God is beyond the humans, and his τελειότης beyond ours. So how can it be that the greek sentence wants us to be τέλειοι as God himself is τέλειός ?
Your question is a Christological one (dealing with the incarnation and the gift of God), rather than a linguistic one. This is not really the place to discuss that in depth, but let me say somethings. It is the message that is expressed in the Greek, not the Greek as a lanuage that tells us that. Greek has been used by many different thinkers and theologians to express various cosmogonies, cosmologies and beliefs. We read Greek because is one of the languages of the Scripture and of the early Christian centuries. Due to natural revelation, all human languages contain some awareness of God, of hope, or rebirth, of the struggle with death, and Greek is no exception. When we think so highly as you have expressed about Greek, it is because the Christian usage that the language is used for the languages highest usage. Becareful, however not to take an admiration of Greek too far. The message is bigger than the medium.
Stephen Hughes wrote:this adjective τέλειος we find that human language is able to express a measure of truth concerning the process of our becoming more Christian in character and actions, but at the end of the sequence we do not find the final part of the sequence, but rather that the sequence itself is no longer relevent, and the end is not defined by the sequence, but by the state that it then expresses - perfection.
The τέλος is the end, and the beginning is the ἀρχή and in between them are many steps. If you try to imagine how to get from ἀρχή to τέλος in one jump, it will seem like too much - actually thing just sort of happen as they come and one things leads to another if you let it.

Yes, if you would like to think of it simply, putting an ὡς makes what follows it into an adverb of manner (as a rough equivalent), ie ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν. The unchanging model for τελειότης is your heavenly father ("father" also with the meaning model for behaviour). The ὡς makes "your" father in heaven the measure of all τελειότης. The father is knowable, having for us the intimate name of a family member.

The Greek doesn't tell you to pursue " not from any other τελειότης". It seems from the historical Church that other forms of τελειότης and striving for virtue were adopted by the Church at various times and to varying degrees, because those things were not against the Faith and were helpful for some people to understand or better practice their faith. While that is an interesting question in itself, that question needs to be answered in the terms that are outside the scope of this forum.

You are right about my misspelling of ineffable.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jean-Michel Colin
Posts: 17
Joined: August 15th, 2013, 4:54 pm

Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Jean-Michel Colin »

Stephen Hughes wrote: I think that what you consider to be your fundamental question is what many members on this forum think that they are coming here to find in simply expressed terms.
Happy to know that I'm not totally at the wrong place ! ;)
Stephen Hughes wrote: The Greek doesn't tell you to pursue " not from any other τελειότης". It seems from the historical Church that other forms of τελειότης and striving for virtue were adopted by the Church at various times and to varying degrees, because those things were not against the Faith and were helpful for some people to understand or better practice their faith. While that is an interesting question in itself, that question needs to be answered in the terms that are outside the scope of this forum.
Well, I probably agree with you, my point was illustrative and not a stiff understanding.
Jean-Michel Colin
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Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Jean-Michel Colin »

Mt 5:48 wrote: ἔσεσθε οὖν ὑμεῖς τέλειοι ὡς ὁ πατὴρ ὑμῶν ὁ οὐράνιος τέλειός ἐστιν.
Stephen Hughes wrote: There are two uses of the adjective τέλειος here one is with the indicative and the other is a future indicative with the sense of an imperative.
BTW, can the indicative future ἔσεσθε be milder than the imperative ἔστε ? What would be the nuance ?
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Matthew 5:48 - τέλειοι = perfect or ...

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jean-Michel Colin wrote:can the indicative future ἔσεσθε be milder than the imperative ἔστε ? What would be the nuance ?
While I could give you my opinion or observation on this, or a reference to standard work, but that type of information will only every be part of your answer. We read what is in the text to know the persons and things that are beyond the text.

Our further study of Greek at a deeper level is often prompted by the questions that arise in our own reading. This will be one of your recurrent questioning when you read over the following years. Try to read and understand, yes, but also step back from the text from time to time, and consider how things work in your life.

The Bible is the Bible, like no other, but Greek is a language like any other, and it is okay to ask "What if..?" questions. In this case, "What if it had been ἔστε instead of ἔσεσθε?". You may like to consider another mood too, the subjunctive with ἵνα. You could also consider in your native French what are some of the general everyday meanings of either perfection as either a state or as a goal, and then consider what it means for the Lord Christ to have said that to his followers, and see how τέλειος might be used in a different sense than a person who didn't know about God in the 1st century might have understood it.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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