1 Tim 2:15 they - children

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1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Alan Patterson » September 27th, 2013, 8:39 pm

1 Tim 2:

13 αδαμ γαρ πρωτος επλασθη ειτα ευα
14 και αδαμ ουκ ηπατηθη η δε γυνη εξαπατηθεισα εν παραβασει γεγονεν
15 σωθησεται δε δια της τεκνογονιας εαν μεινωσιν εν πιστει και αγαπη και αγιασμω μετα σωφροσυνης

I have got to believe that this exact question has already been asked but I was unable to search it out.

δια της τεκνογονιας... μεινωσιν

Taking a fairly big leap -- but what else can we do in this crazy passage -- I was wondering if δια της τεκνογονιας implies children? And then those who μεινωσιν are the implicit children. Granted it brings us no closer to solving this mystery, but is it an acceptable syntactical connection?
χαρις υμιν και ειρηνη,
Alan Patterson
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby cwconrad » September 28th, 2013, 5:09 am

Again, the whole text of 1 Tim 2:13-15 (with accents):

1 Tim 2:13 Ἀδὰμ γὰρ πρῶτος ἐπλάσθη, εἶτα Εὕα. 14 καὶ Ἀδὰμ οὐκ ἠπατήθη, ἡ δὲ γυνὴ ἐξαπατηθεῖσα ἐν παραβάσει γέγονεν· 15 σωθήσεται δὲ διὰ τῆς τεκνογονίας, ἐὰν μείνωσιν ἐν πίστει καὶ ἀγάπῃ καὶ ἁγιασμῷ μετὰ σωφροσύνης.

While I well understand that some -- perhaps many -- would deem my solution to the problem of 1 Tim 2:15 a "counsel of despair", I would just simply obelize the verse, acknowledging that it is well enough attested in the MSS but indicating that it does not yield any wholly convincing sense. While the sentence can be parsed and diagrammed by a beginner in Biblical Greek, that's possible because the verse is just about the kind of verse a beginner in Biblical Greek might compose. Its grammar is flawed fatally, and its phraseology yields no really convincing connected meaning. The NET comment on this verse suggests 5 possible ways of reading this; I find it hard to agree with the commentator that any of them is more convincing than another. Alan Patterson now suggests yet another way of understanding the subject-less verb μείνωσιν, a solution that strikes me as not a whit more persuasive than the other suggestions. Should any reader seriously look to this verse for "nurture and admonition", my own response must be: καὶ γὰρ ἐὰν ἄδηλον σάλπιγξ φωνὴν δῷ, τίς παρασκευάσεται εἰς πόλεμον; (1 Cor 14:8).
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Stephen Carlson » September 28th, 2013, 5:37 am

I seem to recall a JBL article or the sort along the lines of what Alan is suggesting. Unfortunately, I don't have a cite ready.

This verse is a crux and it has attracted and continues to attract proposals of varying plausibility over the years.
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Louis L Sorenson » September 28th, 2013, 11:13 am

Is this the one?

Saved through Childbearing: Virtues as Children in 1 Timothy 2:11-15
Kenneth L. Waters, Sr.
Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 123, No. 4 (Winter, 2004), pp. 703-735
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Wes Wood » September 28th, 2013, 12:45 pm

Stanley Porter gives a brief treatment of this passage in the Journal for the Study of the New Testament. It is reprinted in the series Studies in the Greek New Testament. The title is "What Does it Mean to be 'Saved by Childbirth.'" I am not saying I agree with the article. I just thought you may be interested if you had not already read it. Please forgive my punctuation. I don't know how to underline on an iPad. I am technologically challenged.
Ἀσπάζομαι μὲν καὶ φιλῶ, πείσομαι δὲ μᾶλλον τῷ θεῷ ἢ ὑμῖν.-Ἀπολογία Σωκράτους 29δ
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Barry Hofstetter » September 29th, 2013, 6:50 am

As a beginning Greek student, this was the very first verse of the NT that I read independent of any class, assuming that the Greek would help answer the "what does it really mean" question. It was an excellent introduction to hermeneutics, that knowledge of the Greek is only the beginning of wisdom...

N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκώ τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω
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Re: 1 Tim 2:15 they - children

Postby Stephen Carlson » September 29th, 2013, 4:58 pm

Louis L Sorenson wrote:Is this the one?

Yes. Thanks.
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