Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definitely a proper Name here?

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.

Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definitely a proper Name here?

Postby Peter Streitenberger » October 12th, 2013, 6:59 am

Dear friends,

is it absoluty sure that Jesus uses the word Πέτρος in the sense of a proper name in the following Verse:

BYZ Matthew 16:18 Κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾍδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

I think it's possible that he alludes to the function of Petrus, namely as a stone built on the rock, So maybe a rendering as the following is possible: "Also I say to you, you are a stone and on this rock I will build my church".

I have some doubt that it was the intention of Jesus to call Petrus by name here, so maybe an alternative reading would be possible.
What do you think ?
Yours
Peter, Germany
Peter Streitenberger
 
Posts: 123
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definetly a proper Name here?

Postby cwconrad » October 12th, 2013, 12:35 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Dear friends,

is it absolutely sure that Jesus uses the word Πέτρος in the sense of a proper name in the following Verse:

BYZ Matthew 16:18 Κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾍδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

I think it's possible that he alludes to the function of Petrus, namely as a stone built on the rock, So maybe a rendering as the following is possible: "Also I say to you, you are a stone and on this rock I will build my church".

I have some doubt that it was the intention of Jesus to call Petrus by name here, so maybe an alternative reading would be possible.
What do you think ?
Yours
Peter, Germany


I do not think that this is a question that can be resolved on the basis of the Greek text as a Greek text. It seems to me more a matter of the assumptions you bring with you to reading the Greek text. In terms of the narrative sequence and the Biblical pattern of bestowal of epithets in narratives relating what might be called "personal paradigm-changes" for characters (e.g., Abram-Abraham, Jacob-Israel, Saul-Paul), it's hard to maintain that this is not a comparable tale associated with Simon/Peter's declaration of Jesus' Messianic status. Moreover, I find it difficult to make much sense of Jesus simply equating Simon with a stone atop a rock. It's the rock, not the stone, on which Jesus vows to construct his ἐκκλησία. So: is it "absolutely sure that Jesus uses the word Πέτρος in the sense of a proper name" in this verse? I'd have to say that the (heavy) burden of proof rests upon the person who wants to claim that it's not true -- but I don't think such an argument can be offered on the basis of the Greek text of this verse.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω
cwconrad
 
Posts: 1393
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definetly a proper Name here?

Postby RandallButh » October 13th, 2013, 1:39 am

The listing of "name-changings" is interesting.

Yes Abram--Abraham is a name change. And Gen 17.5 uses 'will be called' in the formula.
Sara, Gen 17:16 uses 'you shall not call her name Sarai but Sarah is her name"
Gen 32:28 "you name will no longer be said to be Jacob . . .

However, Saul never gets a name change. Apparentally, he always had an 'international" name, Pavlos, along with his internal Jewish name Shaul.

Now John 1:42 uses Cepha with a name change formula "you will be called"

But Matthew 16 doesn't have a "will be called" anywhere. An article will appear is a collection (SBL 2013?) by David Bivin, discussing the name Petros and arguing that it was a rare, but attested, Jewish international name that apparentally dropped out of use for a self-evident reason.
In any case Matthew 16 is a wordplay, "you ARE Petros, and on this petra . . ."
RandallButh
 
Posts: 617
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definetly a proper Name here?

Postby cwconrad » October 13th, 2013, 8:22 am

Okay, it isn't a name change, but it would appear that the confessional statement by Σίμων Πέτρος (he is referred to thus in Mt 16:16) is the action that triggers the word-play and the link to the establishment of the ἐκκλησία. Would the word-play have any point at all if Πέτρος were not the name of the disciple?
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω
cwconrad
 
Posts: 1393
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definetly a proper Name here?

Postby RandallButh » October 13th, 2013, 11:41 am

Yes, that is the point. The word play is possible because it was the name. Because it already was his name, the wordplay had an affect.
RandallButh
 
Posts: 617
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definitely a proper Name here?

Postby Peter Streitenberger » November 27th, 2013, 7:48 am

Maybe this passage explains the Name "Petros" out of the function of Simon as a Stone built on the rock (I'm just reasoning a bit)? You're a Stone and that's why I call you Petros. Definetly a Play of words - but what comes first - the Stone or the Name?
Yours
Peter
Peter Streitenberger
 
Posts: 123
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Mat 16,18 Πέτρος - definitely a proper Name here?

Postby cwconrad » November 27th, 2013, 9:57 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Maybe this passage explains the Name "Petros" out of the function of Simon as a Stone built on the rock (I'm just reasoning a bit)? You're a Stone and that's why I call you Petros. Definitely a play of words - but what comes first - the Stone or the Name?

Cf. John 1:42:
ἤγαγεν αὐτὸν (= Σίμωνα) πρὸς τὸν Ἰησοῦν. ἐμβλέψας αὐτῷ ὁ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· σὺ εἶ Σίμων ὁ υἱὸς Ἰωάννου, σὺ κληθήσῃ Κηφᾶς, ὃ ἑρμηνεύεται Πέτρος.

There has been considerable discussion over the question whether Κηφᾶς/Cephas, the Aramaic equivalent of Greek πέτρος, is really identical to the apostle Πέτρος, as he is generally thought to be. No doubt Matthew does "etymologize", but Matthew's account of the naming and the occasion with which it's associated doesn't seem to square with John's, It's hard to escape the conclusion that for Matthew the name is associated with the solid foundation of the ἐκκλησία.
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ὁ ἀναγινώσκων νοείτω
cwconrad
 
Posts: 1393
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714


Return to New Testament

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 1 guest