Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 17th, 2013, 6:05 am

RandallButh wrote:To ignore on the grounds that it shows up in the Talmud (Jeffrey did not specially argue this, he just didn't deal with the usages) and that the talmud is post-NT is a fig leaf. The talmud is a repository of Jewish culture with ample ties to the Second Temple, Qumran, NT, et al. It must be sifted, not ignored.

He has another article which cites passages from the Talmud on this point.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby RandallButh » October 17th, 2013, 6:08 am

Jonathan,

so rather woodenly:

ודבקני במצותיך,
ואל תביאני לא לידי חטא
ולא לידי עון,
ולא לידי נסיון,
ולא לידי בזיון

And keep me tight with your commandments,
and don't bring me--
not to-the-hands of sin,
and not to-the-hands of guilt,
and not to-the-hands of trial,
and not to-the-hands of scorn

Stephen,
Thanks, I didn't see the talmud citation in the article referenced.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 17th, 2013, 6:27 am

RandallButh wrote:Thanks, I didn't see the talmud citation in the article referenced.

It's an SBL paper, so I don't know if the size limit affected what to include, but one can't include everything on those.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby ed krentz » October 17th, 2013, 12:11 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:Which implies that God might actually lead us into temptation? Or perhaps testing ...

Or am I reading something into this that is not there?

This is getting a little too outside my comfort zone, but Jeffrey Gibson has written a paper on this very topic here: http://www.markgoodacre.org/synoptic-l/gibson.htm


Thanks for the reminder. It's time to reread that ...


If one recognizes that the language of the Lord's Prayer is eschatological from beginning to end, as Raymond Brown argued in a Fortress Press Facet Book, Then the sixth pet4itioin would be "Deliver us from the great test" that comes before the parousia (See Rev. 20) and the seventh petition would be "But deliver us from the Evil One."

Brown is completely persuasive, so far as I am concerned. Then the semantic field in which one reads and prayes the Lord's Prayer is that of OT and Jewish eschatology.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby RandallButh » October 17th, 2013, 1:18 pm

Thank you Ed, for the reference to Brown's little booklet and larger works.

However, if מלכות שמים [sic] is a tech term shared by Jesus and the Pharisees against Qumran,
(NB: KoH is never in Qumran, and 'yoke of K of H' is NOT in the best Mishnaic mss (Kaufmann, Parma, Cambridge), only לקבל מלכות שמים 'to receive K of H' at MBer 2.2-5 just like Matthew, cf. Mekhilta, too, a fact unfortunately missed by virtually all NT commentators of the past generations.)
parallel to ייעשה רצונך and יתקדש שמך
and לחם חוקנו is the tech term that explains the enigmatic τὸν ἄρτον τὸν ἐπιούσιον, while the מחר tradition becomes secondary and doesn't explain the Greek,
and מחל חובותינו is the cancel-debt/sin idiom
then
the prayer is a central daily prayer reestablishing one's relationship and reliance on the Lord, a short personalized substitute for the 18 benedictions.

so while I appreciate the late Professor Brown's attempt to read the prayer, there are other ways to read the prayer.
I'm probably as different from Brown as Dodd was from Schweizer on KoG.

The problem here is that much of the argument goes to Hebrew/Greek interface, which is quite a specialized field and not really for BGreek, other than to point out the obvious need for including such interface in critical work..
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby jgibson000 » October 18th, 2013, 9:36 am

A couple of things in response to what has been said here.

1. The article on the LP that was published in the Fawcett series was by J. Jeremias, not R.A. Brown. Brown's essay on the LP as an Eschatalogical prayer that was originally published in Theological Studies 22 [1961], 175-208) and then in Brown's New Testament Essays. A PDF of that essay can be found here: http://www.ts.mu.edu/readers/content/pd ... 22.2.1.pdf. Jeremias' here: http://www.peacechurchrochester.org/Adu ... remias.pdf

2. While there is little discussion of the alleged relation between the LP -- a far better title is "The Disciple's Prayer" -- and allegedly contemporary Jewish prayers (especially the 18 benedictions ) in my SBL paper, I do discuss this question in my article "Matthew 6:9–13//Luke 11:2–4: An Eschatological Prayer?" that was published in the Biblical Theology Bulletin: A Journal of Bible and Theology August 2001 31: 96-105,. For the text, go to http://www.academia.edu/2542253/Matthew ... _and_quest. I do this more extensively in my yet to be published booklet "The Disciples' Prayer", an uncorrected draft of which can be found at http://www.academia.edu/3641674/The_Disciples_Prayer.

3. Scholarship is now questioning whether the prayers that Jesus supposedly drew the material and horizon of the LP from were even in existence in Jesus' time. On this, see the appendix E on this question (THE PROBLEM OF ASSOCIATING THE LORD’S PRAYER WITH JEWISH STATUTORY PRAYERS) in Richard Wendel's _The Interpretation of the Lord's Prayer, Q 11:2b-4_in the Formative Stratum of Q According to the Literary and Cultural Perspectives Afforded by the Affixed Aphorisms, Q 11:9-10, 11-13_ available here:

http://ecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent ... t=luc_diss

4. As to the LP being "eschatological" in its orientation, see not only my BTB article above, but the lengthy discussion of this question and and analysis of the arguments used to support the eschatological view in my "The Disciples' Prayer" mentioned above.

5. Folks here might be interested in reading my "Mark 14:38 as a Key to the Markan Audience", where I discuss the meaning of the phrase "to enter into PEIRASMOS"

http://www.academia.edu/3604844/Mark_14 ... n_Audience

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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 18th, 2013, 11:04 am

Jonathan Robie wrote:Randall, I don't read Hebrew - could you please provide a translation for the Hebrew quotes?

Though Duke has required me to learn Hebrew, I'd like to second this request and apply it to everyone more generally. Not everyone on B-Greek has the gift of tongues and interpretation, so can people please append a translation for quotations in any language other than this form's topic (Biblical Greek) and medium (English)? Thanks!
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby RandallButh » October 18th, 2013, 11:29 am

Well, I would require a NT training to include Hebrew, too, at least to "TOEFL 550" level.

OK, just a wild guess -- Duke didn't require you to learn the language to the level of thinking in it and being able to process texts at the speed of speech?
Now Swedish, that's a language . . . and I wonder at what point you will feel that it overtakes and goes beyond your Hebrew?

Meanwhile, translations were provided above.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby Stephen Carlson » October 18th, 2013, 12:40 pm

RandallButh wrote:Well, I would require a NT training to include Hebrew, too, at least to "TOEFL 550" level.

(Don't what the TOEFL 550 is . . .,)

RandallButh wrote:OK, just a wild guess -- Duke didn't require you to learn the language to the level of thinking in it and being able to process texts at the speed of speech?

It's not a request on my part personally but from someone else. This forum has a lot of people where Greek is their first Biblical Language. As for what Duke requires, I had to learn Hebrew only to the point of being able to pass an oral examination involving sight reading two randomly chosen passages (one narrative and one poetry) and then translating them.

RandallButh wrote:Now Swedish, that's a language . . . and I wonder at what point you will feel that it overtakes and goes beyond your Hebrew?

Oh, quite some time ago.
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Re: Matthew 6:13 καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν

Postby RandallButh » October 18th, 2013, 2:21 pm


RandallButh wrote:Well, I would require a NT training to include Hebrew, too, at least to "TOEFL 550" level.


(Don't what the TOEFL 550 is . . .,)



Since English is your mother-tongue//educational language, you weren't required the "Test of English as a Foreign Language". Foreign students must pass at a level of 550 to be cleared from taking more English courses. It's sort of a basic adult functional fluency level. Exactly what we would expect of a school that treated biblical languages with equal respect.
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