Andrew Chapman wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:Make the one you are talking about king of the Jews, and after that he would be king.
But Pilate is the subject of ποιήσω; the Jews are the subject of λέγετε. I didn't really understand your 'first possibility' above, in which you seem to have in view Pilate making Jesus the King of the Jews, as well presumably as the Jews calling Jesus the King of the Jews.
Ha ha.
What a conincidence... To be honest, I have trouble with the option that I have called the second possibility (followed by all the English translations) where λέγετε is given the standard translation "called" (or something like that). I don't find that sense in the word λέγειν. It's not something I am comfortable, but since a lot of other people who know Greek better than I do have found it, I'll take their word for it, and accept it on that basis until I can either see λέγειν used in that way for myself or until I have a solid reason (other than my own ineptitude) for disprefering it.
The basis of my ill-formed thinkinging is that it's sort of logical to assign that meaning of "called" to the active here, but apart from these instances, I would say that that meaning "called", "said to be" is a meaning for the mediopassive of λέγειν not the active - but that's just my hunch.
You have trouble understanding my second option, and I'm not particularly taken with what I have called the first option above either, but anyway, here's how it works, look at the ὃν λέγετε which Peter asserts in Mark 14:71 before the rooster crows;
Οὐκ οἶδα τὸν ἄνθρωπον τοῦτον ὃν λέγετε
"I don't know this man,
who you are talking about".
Reading the ὃν λέγετε in Mark 15:12 in the same way, they would both refer to Jesus, ie. ὃν λέγετε = Ἰησοῦν. To paraphrase Mark 15:12, then, would give us Τί οὖν θέλετε ποιήσω {Ἰησοῦν* - the guy they are talking about ὃν λέγετε} τὸν βασιλέα τῶν Ἰουδαίων; In this case τὸν βασιλέα τῶν Ἰουδαίων is what (the Lord) Jesus would be made to become, if Pilate were to give the order. (And if you will pardon a flight of fancy, the ὃν λέγετε that we see, was possibly in contradistinction to the insurrectionist Jesus - who is referred to in most variants as "Barabbas" - who had presumably wanted to make himself King of the Jews by force).
[Also... It is not a very interesting point, but I assume that translators, as educated and cultivated individuals in a quiet environment, would go with what I have called the first possibility and see Pilate's question as answered by the Σταύρωσον αὐτόν "Crucify him!" of the following verse and so translate Τί with the ποιήσω {τοῦτον / τούτῳ} "What should I do with him?". But they were perhaps less than rational, and more like a mob of sports fans, who illogically gvae their same answer to the next question too. It is probably
that assumption of underlying logicity in the "dialogue" that has obscured the second possibility that the Greek text holds, which shows us it is important to grapple with the Word of God in the original Greek, so as to at least see the possibilites.]
[To understand ποιῆσαι in what I have called the second option; perhaps
this little parallel is helpful even though I only mentioned it very recently; ποιῆσαι is to γίνεσθαι as βαλεῖν is to κεῖσθαι]