Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Dear friends and collegues,
John 6:6 Τοῦτο δὲ ἔλεγεν πειράζων αὐτόν· αὐτὸς γὰρ ᾔδει τί ἔμελλεν ποιεῖν.
Why used John the Imperfect ἔλεγεν and not an Aorist form? What intended force could that imply? Is he saying that while/as/during Jesus was saying that he wanted to test his disciple?
Thanks for all help - even suggestions are highly welcome !
Yours
Peter
John 6:6 Τοῦτο δὲ ἔλεγεν πειράζων αὐτόν· αὐτὸς γὰρ ᾔδει τί ἔμελλεν ποιεῖν.
Why used John the Imperfect ἔλεγεν and not an Aorist form? What intended force could that imply? Is he saying that while/as/during Jesus was saying that he wanted to test his disciple?
Thanks for all help - even suggestions are highly welcome !
Yours
Peter
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Though both forms can be used with the same propositional truth values, I think the imperfect helps to convey that this statement is part of the background to the main story line.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Agreed, Stephen, is there a way to grasp that in a translation?
Yours
Peter
Yours
Peter
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
I think the English past progressive does this well: "He was saying this to test him, for he himself knew what to do." Most translations, except the NASB, don't do this however, I guess because the elaboration purpose is pretty clear even from a simple past.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?Stephen Carlson wrote:I think the English past progressive does this well: "He was saying this to test him, for he himself knew what to do." Most translations, except the NASB, don't do this however, I guess because the elaboration purpose is pretty clear even from a simple past.
Yours
Peter
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
We would be glad to rent it to you. The famous American humorist Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain), had quite a bit to say about learning German:Peter Streitenberger wrote:
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html
This despite the fact we have surviving examples of several letters that Twain wrote in German, and apparently they are quite good German.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Wo finden wir solche? Möchten Sie bitte uns einen Beleg liefern?Barry Hofstetter wrote:We would be glad to rent it to you. The famous American humorist Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain), had quite a bit to say about learning German:Peter Streitenberger wrote:
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?
http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html
This despite the fact we have surviving examples of several letters that Twain wrote in German, and apparently they are quite good German.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Translation of the quote above (for the folks not understanding German as Carl does): "Where can we find such examples?"
I find the esimation of Mark Twain on the German languange a bit too harsh - as no languange has deserved such a bitter statement (maybe Mark had a bad teacher). Of course there are many exceptions, rules and hard stuff and e.g nine ways to build the plural of nouns (English has the S-plural - which is enough and provides everything one needs to know). But there are rules, but most Germans don't know them - it's a matter of interest. The progressive tenses (past and present) would be a nice thing to have - I'd buy it - but we have the nine ways of building the plural and other such nice things instead.....Another problem here: no one still knows the pragmatic and semantic difference between the Perfect and the Imperfect - there was one, but it's almost vanished.
Peter, Germany
I find the esimation of Mark Twain on the German languange a bit too harsh - as no languange has deserved such a bitter statement (maybe Mark had a bad teacher). Of course there are many exceptions, rules and hard stuff and e.g nine ways to build the plural of nouns (English has the S-plural - which is enough and provides everything one needs to know). But there are rules, but most Germans don't know them - it's a matter of interest. The progressive tenses (past and present) would be a nice thing to have - I'd buy it - but we have the nine ways of building the plural and other such nice things instead.....Another problem here: no one still knows the pragmatic and semantic difference between the Perfect and the Imperfect - there was one, but it's almost vanished.
Peter, Germany
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
Lieber Peter,Peter Streitenberger wrote:Translation of the quote above (for the folks not understanding German as Carl does): "Where can we find such examples?"
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(English has the S-plural - which is enough and provides everything one needs to know).
- - - - snip snip - - -
Peter, Germany
English, with the S-plural : mouses, mans, leafs, datums, sheeps, fishs, flys, childs, cactuss, gooses, oxs, tooths, foots, criterions
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?
ok, I've missed and did not mendion some other ways the English builds the Plural, besides the S-morphem. Thanks for the additional examples. Fish->fish is not morphologically marked. Man->men (Stemvocal change) and some other nice examples. That's possible here in German as well - but I think we have plenty of more ways.
Yours
Peter
Yours
Peter