Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

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Peter Streitenberger
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Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Dear friends and collegues,

John 6:6 Τοῦτο δὲ ἔλεγεν πειράζων αὐτόν· αὐτὸς γὰρ ᾔδει τί ἔμελλεν ποιεῖν.

Why used John the Imperfect ἔλεγεν and not an Aorist form? What intended force could that imply? Is he saying that while/as/during Jesus was saying that he wanted to test his disciple?

Thanks for all help - even suggestions are highly welcome !

Yours
Peter
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Though both forms can be used with the same propositional truth values, I think the imperfect helps to convey that this statement is part of the background to the main story line.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Agreed, Stephen, is there a way to grasp that in a translation?
Yours
Peter
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Stephen Carlson »

I think the English past progressive does this well: "He was saying this to test him, for he himself knew what to do." Most translations, except the NASB, don't do this however, I guess because the elaboration purpose is pretty clear even from a simple past.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Stephen Carlson wrote:I think the English past progressive does this well: "He was saying this to test him, for he himself knew what to do." Most translations, except the NASB, don't do this however, I guess because the elaboration purpose is pretty clear even from a simple past.
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?

Yours
Peter
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?
We would be glad to rent it to you. The famous American humorist Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain), had quite a bit to say about learning German:

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

This despite the fact we have surviving examples of several letters that Twain wrote in German, and apparently they are quite good German.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
cwconrad
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by cwconrad »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Peter Streitenberger wrote:
I'm sometimes unhappy that the German language hasn't this easy way to express the Greek Imperfect without additional Adverbs, that means that this feature isn't morphologically encoded. A good way for the English languange to use the past progressive tense. My congratulations - can we borrow it?
We would be glad to rent it to you. The famous American humorist Samuel Clemens (aka Mark Twain), had quite a bit to say about learning German:

http://www.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/awfgrmlg.html

This despite the fact we have surviving examples of several letters that Twain wrote in German, and apparently they are quite good German.
Wo finden wir solche? Möchten Sie bitte uns einen Beleg liefern?
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

Translation of the quote above (for the folks not understanding German as Carl does): "Where can we find such examples?"
I find the esimation of Mark Twain on the German languange a bit too harsh - as no languange has deserved such a bitter statement (maybe Mark had a bad teacher). Of course there are many exceptions, rules and hard stuff and e.g nine ways to build the plural of nouns (English has the S-plural - which is enough and provides everything one needs to know). But there are rules, but most Germans don't know them - it's a matter of interest. The progressive tenses (past and present) would be a nice thing to have - I'd buy it - but we have the nine ways of building the plural and other such nice things instead.....Another problem here: no one still knows the pragmatic and semantic difference between the Perfect and the Imperfect - there was one, but it's almost vanished.
Peter, Germany
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Peter Streitenberger wrote:Translation of the quote above (for the folks not understanding German as Carl does): "Where can we find such examples?"
- - - snip snip - - -
(English has the S-plural - which is enough and provides everything one needs to know).
- - - - snip snip - - -
Peter, Germany
Lieber Peter,
English, with the S-plural : mouses, mans, leafs, datums, sheeps, fishs, flys, childs, cactuss, gooses, oxs, tooths, foots, criterions :-)

Shirley Rollinson
Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Joh 6,6 why Imperfect and not Aorist?

Post by Peter Streitenberger »

ok, I've missed and did not mendion some other ways the English builds the Plural, besides the S-morphem. Thanks for the additional examples. Fish->fish is not morphologically marked. Man->men (Stemvocal change) and some other nice examples. That's possible here in German as well - but I think we have plenty of more ways.
Yours
Peter
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