What is the scope of μή? The whole participial phrase, as if: "not having become less than sixty years old"? Or just the complement, as if: "having become not less than sixty years old"?1 Tim 5:9 wrote:Χήρα καταλεγέσθω μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα, ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή, ἐν ἔργοις καλοῖς μαρτυρουμένη,
1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
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1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
Does this mean like, "She was 70 when she was originally enrolled for the widows' support. That was 10 years ago, this year she's 61, so next year will be her last year. When she becomes 59 she will be young enough to look after herself."Stephen Carlson wrote:"not having become less than sixty years old"
After a long dark night ὀψίας δὲ γενομένης.
Last edited by Stephen Hughes on April 28th, 2014, 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
Forgive my low IQ, but your English sentence, "not (yet) having become less than sixty years old." seems to suggest that ages can decrease.Stephen Carlson wrote:You confuse me, Stephen.
As suggested by my parenthesised "yet", it seems that you are reading the meaning of μήπω too easily into the μή, when you read the μή with the γεγονυῖα. Is that justifiable?
I take γεγονυῖα to mean "if she has become".
I'm surprised by the accusative following the ἔλαττον rather than a genitive. I think that suggests that μὴ ἔλαττον is additional to the originally intended syntax.
What would you take these two variations to mean had they been written instead?
- Χήρα καταλεγέσθω ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα or
- Χήρα καταλεγέσθω μὴ ἑλάττων ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα
The second justifies taking μὴ with γεγονυῖα, but suggests that ages go down. I don't know the language or your thinking well enough to say, but my suspicion, when I wrote that thing that confused you is that to get the sense you want in "not having become less than sixty years old", it needs to be adjectival rather than adverbial, but that's part of the Greek idiom that I'm unfamiliar with.
I can't answer the question why μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα is used rather than ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα ή μείζον. If that second option (which wouldn't have this ambiguity) was available, and wasn't taken, then it might suggest that μὴ was intended to be taken with γεγονυῖα, but not necessarily.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
I read this as:Stephen Carlson wrote:What is the scope of μή? The whole participial phrase, as if: "not having become less than sixty years old"? Or just the complement, as if: "having become not less than sixty years old"?1 Tim 5:9 wrote:Χήρα καταλεγέσθω μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα, ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή, ἐν ἔργοις καλοῖς μαρτυρουμένη,
(μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα))
(not (having become less than 60 years old))
This is also the reading of the Global Bible Initiative treebank (formerly known a ABSo) and of Dag Haug's PROEIL treebank.
GBI construes γεγονυῖα with ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή:
(γεγονυῖα (ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή))
PROEIL construes it with μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα:
(γεγονυῖα (μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα)))
The punctuation for SBLGNT and 1904 Nestle both side with PROEIL here:
μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα, ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
Well, they can't. The gloss is to give you the intended scope of the negation, not a semantic analysis of every constituent. Maybe there is some wrong with one of the wooden glosses.Stephen Hughes wrote:Forgive my low IQ, but your English sentence, "not (yet) having become less than sixty years old." seems to suggest that ages can decrease
No, I don't think the difficulty is here. And the adverbs seem equivalent.Stephen Hughes wrote:As suggested by my parenthesised "yet", it seems that you are reading the meaning of μήπω too easily into the μή, when you read the μή with the γεγονυῖα. Is that justifiable?
Why not "if she is"?Stephen Hughes wrote:I take γεγονυῖα to mean "if she has become".
Huh? ἐτῶν is genitive plural and ἑξήκοντα is indeclinable. There is no accusative in sight.Stephen Hughes wrote:I'm surprised by the accusative following the ἔλαττον rather than a genitive. I think that suggests that μὴ ἔλαττον is additional to the originally intended syntax.
That's not my question. Perhaps "not less than" is more idiomatic in such kinds of rule making. One would need to do a proper study of legalistic terminology, and that won't answer the original question.Stephen Hughes wrote:I can't answer the question why μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα is used rather than ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα ή μείζον. If that second option (which wouldn't have this ambiguity) was available, and wasn't taken, then it might suggest that μὴ was intended to be taken with γεγονυῖα, but not necessarily.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
What happened to γεγονυῖα? Does this mean option 2, that μή scopes with the complement of the participle but not the participle itself? Why do you read it that way?Jonathan Robie wrote:I read this as:
(μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα))
(not (having become less than 60 years old))
How can these be accessed?Jonathan Robie wrote:This is also the reading of the Global Bible Initiative treebank (formerly known a ABSo) and of Dag Haug's PROEIL treebank.
Presumably the widow is no longer the wife of one man, so how would the perfect make sense on this parsing?Jonathan Robie wrote:GBI construes γεγονυῖα with ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή:
(γεγονυῖα (ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή))
Option 2, then ("having become not less than sixty years").Jonathan Robie wrote:PROEIL construes it with μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα:
(γεγονυῖα (μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα)))
Well, they side in the association of γενονυῖα, but they are ambiguous as to the scope of the negator.Jonathan Robie wrote:The punctuation for SBLGNT and 1904 Nestle both side with PROEIL here:
μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα, ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
I think PROIEL probably has it right for this verse: (γεγονυῖα (μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα))), which is your Option 2 ("having become not less than sixty years").Stephen Carlson wrote:What happened to γεγονυῖα? Does this mean option 2, that μή scopes with the complement of the participle but not the participle itself? Why do you read it that way?Jonathan Robie wrote:I read this as:
(μὴ (ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα))
(not (having become less than 60 years old))
What I showed above is the part that both treebanks have in common.
The data is in github for each, if you are comfortable with XML.Stephen Carlson wrote:How can these be accessed?Jonathan Robie wrote:This is also the reading of the Global Bible Initiative treebank (formerly known a ABSo) and of Dag Haug's PROIEL treebank.
- GBI Treebank (Nestle 1904, in biblicalhumanities.org github)
- GBI Treebank (SBLGNT, in biblicalhumanities.org github)
- PROIEL Syntax Trees
I have put up an HTML-based representation of the GBI trees that you can use for comparison.
I don't know if any of the Alpheios folks have treebanked 1 Timothy 5:9, it's possible. It's nice to be able to compare analyses at this level.
I think it's a bug. Randall may comment on this.Stephen Carlson wrote:Presumably the widow is no longer the wife of one man, so how would the perfect make sense on this parsing?Jonathan Robie wrote:GBI construes γεγονυῖα with ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή:
(γεγονυῖα (ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή))
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
I would take it as modifying ἔλαττον, "no less than 60 years of age..."Stephen Carlson wrote:What is the scope of μή? The whole participial phrase, as if: "not having become less than sixty years old"? Or just the complement, as if: "having become not less than sixty years old"?1 Tim 5:9 wrote:Χήρα καταλεγέσθω μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα, ἑνὸς ἀνδρὸς γυνή, ἐν ἔργοις καλοῖς μαρτυρουμένη,
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Re: 1 Tim 5:9 Scope of μή
There's no accusative, but I've always assumed that this is a Greek equivalent to the Latin expression, "LX annos natus" = "60 years old"'; I take the expression μὴ ἔλαττον ἐτῶν ἑξήκοντα γεγονυῖα = ἥκιστά γε ἑξήκοντα ἔτη γεγονυῖα. cf. LSJ s.v. γίγνομαι
1 of persons, to be born , … freq. with Numerals, ἔτεα τρία καὶ δέκα γεγονώς Hdt.1.119 ; ἀμφὶ τὰ πέντε ἢ ἑκκαίδεκα ἔτη γενόμενος X.Cyr.1.4.16 ; γεγονὼς ἔτη περὶ πεντήκοντα D. 21.154 ; οἱ ὑπὲρ τὰ στρατεύσιμα ἔτη γεγονότες those of an age beyond . ., X.Cyr.1.2.4 : c. gen., γεγονὼς πλειόνων ἐτῶν ἢ πεντήκοντα Pl.Lg. 951c , etc.: rarely with ordinals, ὀγδοηκοστὸν ἔτος γεγονώς Luc.Macr. 22 , cf. Plu.Phil.18 .
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)