Can statements in 1 Corinthians 4:8 be rhetorical questions?

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David Lee
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Re: Can statements in 1 Corinthians 4:8 be rhetorical questi

Post by David Lee »

I don't think the epistles were written so that they could only be understood with the help of intonations of someone who was present during authorship. The author (both human and divine) would write in a way that the epistle could be understood by most readers, especially if it was meant to be passed around and read in different churches. I think languages have enough nuance that by using certain vocabulary, word order, and word patterns, a fluent immersed reader would be clear on what the epistle is saying, at least semantically.

For a made up (but not necessarily wrong) example: the presence of ἤδη with 2nd person verbs, combined with the absence of δὲ, might have indicated to the fluent reader that these are questions.

What resources can I consult that tackle the question of how to recognize questions in greek?
Stephen Carlson
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Re: Can statements in 1 Corinthians 4:8 be rhetorical questi

Post by Stephen Carlson »

David Lee wrote:What resources can I consult that tackle the question of how to recognize questions in greek?
Good luck with that. You can read the most detailed grammars in the world and they won't tell you the answer you want. It's ambiguous and you have to make a careful exegetical argument based on the context that reading a sentence as a question makes the sense of Paul's epistle.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Stephen Hughes
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certain vocabulary, word order, and word patterns

Post by Stephen Hughes »

David Lee wrote:I don't think the epistles were written so that they could only be understood with the help of intonations of someone who was present during authorship. The author (both human and divine) would write in a way that the epistle could be understood by most readers, especially if it was meant to be passed around and read in different churches.
That statement is a fairly broad stroke of the brush. WE are some of those readers, and belong to those Churches now and your asking this question suggests that we, as readers of the epistle do have difficulty.
Stephen Carlson wrote:
David Lee wrote:What resources can I consult that tackle the question of how to recognize questions in greek?
Good luck with that. You can read the most detailed grammars in the world and they won't tell you the answer you want. It's ambiguous and you have to make a careful exegetical argument based on the context that reading a sentence as a question makes the sense of Paul's epistle.
Not only in the New Testament. Greek is a language like any other. It has its limitations of expression, just like any other. Modern Greek shares this characteristic of un-marked questions with the Koine Greek of the earlier period. We should aim to work hard for fluency in the language if you want to recognise things.
David Lee wrote:I think languages have enough nuance that by using certain vocabulary, word order, and word patterns (= inflections, tenses?? or rhetorical constructions?? SGH), a fluent immersed reader would be clear on what the epistle is saying, at least semantically.
The use of ὄφελον is clear enough indication that this statement is rhetorical. The use of the indicative tense aorist ἐβασιλεύσατε indicates that the writer thinks that that (imagined) situation is removed from the present tangible (sensory) reality. If it is rhetorical as indicated by ὄφελον, and it is in the writer's opinion not the present situation, as indicated by (the second) ἐβασιλεύσατε.

Another thing is the phrase χωρὶς ἡμῶν. Does it mean, "all by yourselves", as in "(So...) you ascended to the throne all by yourselves (did you?)." or does it mean "without inviting us", as in "(So...) you are all kings now, and we are not (are you?)", or perhaps "before we did" (when Jesus comes in his kingdom).
David Lee wrote:For a made up (but not necessarily wrong) example: the presence of ἤδη with 2nd person verbs, combined with the absence of δὲ, might have indicated to the fluent reader that these are questions.
Rather than just thinking of ἤδη as a sort of calque translation "already", try rendering it as, "have finished ....-ing", or as "completely" (more exactly "completedly". In that way, we can see more clearly that its use is hyperbolic. Hyperbolae are featres of rhetorical language (along with rhetorical questions).

To address your original question as to whether these uses of rhetoric could be rhetorical questions? I think they are rhetorical hyperbolae. They are not followed by a bathos (βάθος "understatement") which would have given them added rhetorical effect, as we see in
Philipians 3:8 wrote:Οὐχ ὅτι ἤδη ἔλαβον, ἢ ἤδη τετελείωμαι· διώκω δέ, εἰ καὶ καταλάβω ἐφ’ ᾧ καὶ κατελήφθην ὑπὸ τοῦ χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ
becasue the authour wants to keep the hyperbolic feeling going through all three statements, rather than zig-zagging our feelings up and down as he does in various other places in the epistles.

Possible βάθη could have been, (but weren't), "You are already filled, {while we are still hungry and thristy (for righteousness)}" cf.
Matthew 5:6 wrote:Μακάριοι οἱ πεινῶντες καὶ διψῶντες τὴν δικαιοσύνην · ὅτι αὐτοὶ χορτασθήσονται
χορτάζειν colloquial, κορέσαι (κεκορεσθαι) formal - higher register also sudgesting rhetorical context. Also "you have already become rich, {while we are still poor (in spirit)}" cf.
Matthew 5:4 wrote:Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι · ὅτι αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν .


When he does reach a bathos, it is on the third one about that THEY (from his perspective "WE") could reign together with THEM. cf.
Matthew 20:26 wrote:Ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτῇ, Τί θέλεις; Λέγει αὐτῷ, Εἰπὲ ἵνα καθίσωσιν οὗτοι οἱ δύο υἱοί μου, εἷς ἐκ δεξιῶν σου, καὶ εἷς ἐξ εὐωνύμων σου, ἐν τῇ βασιλείᾳ σου.
In oher words, something like, "Just whose kingdom is it anyway?". "We are looking forward to reigning with YOU, NOT (letdown) = Jesus is he whom we will reign with".

I think they are rhetorically used hyperbolae with the third one followed by a bathos, not rhetorical questions.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
David Lim
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Re: Can statements in 1 Corinthians 4:8 be rhetorical questi

Post by David Lim »

David Lee wrote:The author (both human and divine) would write in a way that the epistle could be understood by most readers, especially if it was meant to be passed around and read in different churches. I think languages have enough nuance that by using certain vocabulary, word order, and word patterns, a fluent immersed reader would be clear on what the epistle is saying, at least semantically.
The first statement of yours is an assumption, which may not be so easy to justify as you might have assumed. Your second statement is reasonable, but what if a rhetorical question and a rhetorical statement have almost exactly the same semantic meaning? Then there would be no need for the reader to attempt to distinguish between the two. Even in English not everything is a statement or a question... We see people using "...?", "?!", "!?!?" and so on, which seems to suggest that some exclamations are 'in-between'...
δαυιδ λιμ
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