John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

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Dmitriy Reznik
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Dmitriy Reznik »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Thanks, that's helpful. Link to the book?
Here it is:
https://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/2077/2 ... 9024_1.pdf
Barry Hofstetter wrote: Now, I'm not going to argue the Hebrew on B-Greek, but I will point out again for emphasis that the Greek needs to be explained on its own without reference to any possible underlying Semitisms. One of the interesting observations to arise from the early study of the non-literary papyri is that a number of constructions which up to that time had been considered Semitisms could be found in the papyri, which shows that they were part of the everyday Greek of the period, and not due to a Semitic influence on the language.
Yes, I read Deissmann's "Light from the ancient East" on this. But even Deissmann did not think that there were no Semitisms in the New Testament at all, in fact, he believed there were many of them. But I agree that this forum is not a good place for discussing this.
Barry Hofstetter wrote: Secondly, earlier you cited BDF in support of your claim that the definite article could be used with a hendiadys. My copy of BDF does not have John 1:17 as one of it's Greek references, and lists "hendiadys" in the subject index under section 442 (16), which, interestingly enough, gives two examples of possible hendiadyses without mentioning the word, and it makes no reference to the definite article in the construction. Where did you see this in BDF?
In 442(16) (which is an article on hendiadys) several examples are given, among which Ja 5:10 (of perseverance in suffering) and Lk 2:47 (at his intelligent answers). Also, in the additional section for (16) we find Mk 6:26 = Mt 14:9 (because of the oath taken before his guests). I did not say that this Grammar mentioned John 1:17. I just said that it gave examples with hendiadyses using articles. One may agree or not with the authors, but that is what they say.
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Thanks. Don't know when I'll have time, but I will try to look at the relevant sections.
Dmitriy Reznik wrote:Yes, I read Deissmann's "Light from the ancient East" on this. But even Deissmann did not think that there were no Semitisms in the New Testament at all, in fact, he believed there were many of them. But I agree that this forum is not a good place for discussing this.
The main point is that even constructions which are true Semitisms (and I disagree that they are that common) are understandable and explainable in terms of the target language (in this case Greek). I am not at all sure that ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια would register as a hendiadys to an ancient speaker of Greek even if the phrase so translated in the LXX was originally a hendiadys in the Hebrew.
Dmitriy Reznik wrote:In 442(16) (which is an article on hendiadys) several examples are given, among which Ja 5:10 (of perseverance in suffering) and Lk 2:47 (at his intelligent answers). Also, in the additional section for (16) we find Mk 6:26 = Mt 14:9 (because of the oath taken before his guests). I did not say that this Grammar mentioned John 1:17. I just said that it gave examples with hendiadyses using articles. One may agree or not with the authors, but that is what they say.
Section 442 is about καί and it's various usages. 442(16) is indeed about hendiadys, but we only know that from the translations of the examples given and the fact that in 442(5) it says "On καί in constructions with hendiadys s. infra (16)." Now, the citation from Aristophanes is clearly a hendiadys, and was undoubtedly so intended by the author (in fact, it's examples like these that we use to teach the concept). The example Mk 6:26/Mt 14:9 is not nearly so clear, and notice that they supply a question mark to indicate that they are giving it only as a possible example. In my edition of BDF, I don't see Ja 5:10 or Lk 2:47 listed, but again, neither of these are necessary hendiadyses on the same level as the Aristophanes citation. While they could be so interpreted as you render above, they could also simply be separate but related concepts, each author giving two examples/reasons in the context of his discourse.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Dmitriy Reznik
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Dmitriy Reznik »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:I am not at all sure that ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια would register as a hendiadys to an ancient speaker of Greek even if the phrase so translated in the LXX was originally a hendiadys in the Hebrew.
I agree with this. I just think that for a Jew like the author of the Gospel of John the Hebrew combination of words we discussed was so common that he might use it naturally without even thinking whether or not his readers would understand it as he does.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
Dmitriy Reznik wrote:In 442(16) (which is an article on hendiadys) several examples are given, among which Ja 5:10 (of perseverance in suffering) and Lk 2:47 (at his intelligent answers). Also, in the additional section for (16) we find Mk 6:26 = Mt 14:9 (because of the oath taken before his guests). I did not say that this Grammar mentioned John 1:17. I just said that it gave examples with hendiadyses using articles. One may agree or not with the authors, but that is what they say.
Section 442 is about καί and it's various usages. 442(16) is indeed about hendiadys, but we only know that from the translations of the examples given and the fact that in 442(5) it says "On καί in constructions with hendiadys s. infra (16)." Now, the citation from Aristophanes is clearly a hendiadys, and was undoubtedly so intended by the author (in fact, it's examples like these that we use to teach the concept). The example Mk 6:26/Mt 14:9 is not nearly so clear, and notice that they supply a question mark to indicate that they are giving it only as a possible example. In my edition of BDF, I don't see Ja 5:10 or Lk 2:47 listed, but again, neither of these are necessary hendiadyses on the same level as the Aristophanes citation. While they could be so interpreted as you render above, they could also simply be separate but related concepts, each author giving two examples/reasons in the context of his discourse.
I am not arguing about how to understand correctly e.g. Ja 5:10 or Lk 2:47. I just gave them as examples of BDF taking them as hendiadyses (at least in my edition). And they understand them as hendiadys, as we can see from English translations of the passages. Again, I am not insisting that BDF is correct.
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Dmitriy Reznik »

FYI.

Just found Figures Of Speech Used in the Bible of E.W.Bullinger (page 663-664) who also understands John 1:17 as hendiadys:
https://archive.org/stream/cu3192402927 ... 7/mode/2up
Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Dmitriy Reznik wrote:FYI.

Just found Figures Of Speech Used in the Bible of E.W.Bullinger (page 663-664) who also understands John 1:17 as hendiadys:
https://archive.org/stream/cu3192402927 ... 7/mode/2up
Ah, yes, good old Bullinger. Just be careful in using him. His major flaw is that he often sees literary devices where again it is doubtful that the original author intended them. At any rate, if in heaven John should inform me, "Why, yes, of course I intended a hendiadys there (and thanks for reading my little book)," then I wouldn't be at all disappointed... :D
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Dmitriy Reznik
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Joined: January 13th, 2014, 2:12 pm
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Re: John 1:17: is it hendiadys?

Post by Dmitriy Reznik »

Barry Hofstetter wrote: Ah, yes, good old Bullinger. Just be careful in using him. His major flaw is that he often sees literary devices where again it is doubtful that the original author intended them. At any rate, if in heaven John should inform me, "Why, yes, of course I intended a hendiadys there (and thanks for reading my little book)," then I wouldn't be at all disappointed... :D
:) Thank you very much for participating in this discussion. It is very important for me.
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