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B-Greek: The Biblical Greek Forum • Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?
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Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 3rd, 2014, 11:24 am
by mahlonsmith6582@att.net
A mystery in Luke 4:23 - καὶ εἶπεν πρὸς αὐτούς· Πάντως ἐρεῖτέ μοι τὴν παραβολὴν ταύτην· Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· ὅσα ἠκούσαμεν γενόμενα εἰς τὴν Καφαρναοὺμ ποίησον καὶ ὧδε ἐν τῇ πατρίδι σου. Jesus alludes to the short little proverbial saying: Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· as being a widely well-known. The question: what is its source? NA 27 cross references Mt 27:42, which has the people saying to Jesus on the cross: Ἄλλους ἔσωσεν, ἑαυτὸν οὐ δύναται σῶσαι. NA 28 cross references Lk 23:35, which is a parallel to Mt 27:42. I have my hunches, but I wanted to see what this group thought.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 3rd, 2014, 3:17 pm
by Stephen Carlson
This really isn't a Greek question.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 3rd, 2014, 3:46 pm
by Stephen Hughes
Stephen Carlson wrote:This really isn't a Greek question.
Perhaps not in and of itself, but raises an interesting issue of synonymy.

Namely that θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal") are closer synonyms than a beginners' word-list's glosses may suggest.

That is probably obvious to others, but - having spent many years memorising alphabetically arranged beginners' word-lists - I hadn't noticed it clearly till now.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 4th, 2014, 2:14 pm
by mahlonsmith6582@att.net
To Stephen Hughes: I had a hunch there might be some type of link between θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal"). Do you or anyone think that Jesus is rebuking them from their failure to regard Him as the great physician by His alluding to such texts as Isaiah 53:5b (LXX)τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν? 1 Peter 2:24 draws a salvific connection to ἰάομαι, notice: ὃς τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν αὐτὸς ἀνήνεγκεν ἐν τῷ σώματι αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον, ἵνα ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἀπογενόμενοι τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ ζήσωμεν, οὗ τῷ μώλωπι ἰάθητε. To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time. :)

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 4th, 2014, 9:37 pm
by Stephen Carlson
mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time. :)
This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 5th, 2014, 2:39 am
by Stephen Hughes
mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Hughes: I had a hunch there might be some type of link between θεραπεύειν "to attend to sb." (in the sense of "heal") and σώζειν "to save" (in the sense of "heal"). Do you or anyone think that Jesus is rebuking them from their failure to regard Him as the great physician by His alluding to such texts as Isaiah 53:5b (LXX)τῷ μώλωπι αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς ἰάθημεν? 1 Peter 2:24 draws a salvific connection to ἰάομαι, notice: ὃς τὰς ἁμαρτίας ἡμῶν αὐτὸς ἀνήνεγκεν ἐν τῷ σώματι αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον, ἵνα ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ἀπογενόμενοι τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ ζήσωμεν, οὗ τῷ μώλωπι ἰάθητε.
In a "soft focus" overview of words relating to "healing" yes, those words and others that you have noted are related to each other.

I see your point about Isaiah / Peter. I know enough Greek - and so do many others on this forum - to be able say that σώζειν, ἰάεθαι and θεραπεύειν could be being used to express similar ideas, but ... I have only done a compulsory one semester course in OT typology, so I'm not really the person to answer your interpretive questions about how one should see the precise relationship between them in these contexts.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 5th, 2014, 7:16 pm
by Shirley Rollinson
Stephen Carlson wrote:
mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time. :)
This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.
You mean we're not supposed to ask where a quote comes from ????
Or we're supposed to ask in a different forum ????
C'mon guys - some of you Classicists or Hebraicists, if you know of a probable source for this quote, let us know.
Thanks,
Shirley Rollinson

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 5th, 2014, 9:43 pm
by Michael Theophilos
Homer (Illiad, XI 833-35) ΙΗΤΡΟΙ... ΤΟΝ ΜΕΝ ΕΝΙ ΚΛΙΣΙΗΣΙΝ ΟΙΟΜΑΙ ΕΛΚΟΣ ΕΧΟΝΤΑ ΧΡΙΖΟΝΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΑΥΤΟΝ ΑΜΥΜΟΝΟΣ ΙΗΤΗΡΟΣ, ΚΕΙΣΑΙ... cf. Euripides (cf. Plutarch) ΑΛΛΩΝ ΙΑΤΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΟΣ ΕΛΚΕΣΙΝ ΒΡΥΩΝ. See further J. L. Nolland, “Classical and Rabbinic Parallels to ‘Physician, Heal Yourself’ (Lk iv 23),” NovT 21 (1979):193-209.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 5th, 2014, 10:46 pm
by Stephen Carlson
Shirley Rollinson wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:
mahlonsmith6582@att.net wrote:To Stephen Carlson - I'm not certain why this is not a Greek question. If I missed something in how I framed my posting, please inform me so that I can be more precise the next time. :)
This forum is about what the Greek means, from the meaning of words to their syntax and to their context. The forum includes exegesis and acquisition (pedagogy), but it is not about source criticism, textual criticism, theology, etc.
You mean we're not supposed to ask where a quote comes from ????
It's not a question about the Greek.
Shirley Rollinson wrote:Or we're supposed to ask in a different forum ????
Well, if it is where the historical Jesus got the proverb from (or if he said it), then there's the Crosstalk mailing list.

If it is a question where the Lukan evangelist got the material from, then there is the Synoptic-L mailing list.

Answering the source question involves a lot of historical-critical assumptions that, in the experience of B-Greek, tend to generate vigorous debates that have nothing to do with the meaning of the Greek.
Shirley Rollinson wrote:C'mon guys - some of you Classicists or Hebraicists, if you know of a probable source for this quote, let us know.
I believe this has just been answered with a cite.

Re: Source of Ἰατρέ, θεράπευσον σεαυτόν· in Luke 4:23?

Posted: September 6th, 2014, 3:38 am
by George F Somsel
I suspect that the origin of the question is in an attempt to find such a quotation in the OT. It would, however, be somewhat foolish to suppose that there were no proverbs in common usage which were not to be found in the OT. There were doubtless many sayings which were used in everyday life which were not found in the OT.