Luke 7:11

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Post Reply
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4167
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Luke 7:11

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς ἐπορεύθη εἰς πόλιν καλουμένην Ναΐν
Lexham renders ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς "on the next day". Several other translations render it "soon afterward". Is one of these understandings clearly right? In Acts 21, the same translations render a similar construction, "τῇ δὲ ἑξῆς", as "the next day".
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
cwconrad
Posts: 2112
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:52 pm
Location: Burnsville, NC 28714
Contact:

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by cwconrad »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς ἐπορεύθη εἰς πόλιν καλουμένην Ναΐν
Lexham renders ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς "on the next day". Several other translations render it "soon afterward". Is one of these understandings clearly right? In Acts 21, the same translations render a similar construction, "τῇ δὲ ἑξῆς", as "the next day".
BDAG suggests that with ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς we should understand χρόνῳ and with ἐν τῇ ἑξῆς we should understand ἡμέρᾳ. So I'd guess that "soon afterward" -- which could, of course, mean "on the next day" is what's meant by ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς. My own guess is that this is a matter of "six of one" and "half a dozen of the other."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Let me follow a few steps to stretch a full arm-span to bring two things together to make my point.
  1. Assume for a moment (rightly or wrongly - not relevant to our purposes here) that the infinitive with the article has adjectival (non-independent nominal force, but requiring a nun or the article to stand) force - and conversely that the one without has unaided nominal force - ἐν τῷ σπείρειν = ἐν τῷ σπείρειν <noun>
  2. For a phrase that is to be interpreted in terms of time, the noun that we could best supply is χρόνῳ
  3. Next, follow the general syntax transformation in this case that follows from when we change σπείρειν as an adj. to σπείρειν as a noun, to give us: ἐν τῷ (χρόνῳ τοῦ) σπείρειν.
  4. Now let's extend this idea by analogy to the adv. that we are considering.
  5. It becomes ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς <noun>
  6. The logical noun for a reference to time is of course χρόνῳ, giving ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς (χρόνῳ)
  7. To rearrange that then, we would have to leave ἑξῆς as an adjective, because adv.s can't take full nominal force even when moved, giving the modified adj. phrase ἐν τῷ (χρόνῳ τῷ) ἑξῆς,
  8. That can be rendered for sense as "in the following time" = "when the time for those things had finished" = "in the time for the next things" ≈ "shortly after".
The χρόνος for the following things may coincide with a "day", but that would be interpretation rather than translation.

I think that the phrase for the τῇ δὲ ἑξῆς it is not like the phrase for the (articular) infinitives, but is a "sc." phrase as Carl suggests.

[I've never liked the minimalism of that William of Ockham.]
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
Posts: 4167
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Thanks, Carl and Stephen. That clears it up for me.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
RandallButh
Posts: 1105
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by RandallButh »

Jonathan robie egrapsen:
... That clears it up for me.
well, let me risk the danger of fixing what appears to no longer be broken.

The phrase in Luke occurs in one of the impersonal ἐγένετο phrases. This Hebraic subtype of the ἐγἐνετο phrases is traditionally attributed to Luke, but contrary to what some gospel commentaries say, there is not one of these Hebraic subtypes in the book of Acts. Sixteen times in Acts Luke uses a similar "Greek" subtype, where an impersonal ἐγένετο phrase introduces an infinitival main clase (also in the Gospel, like Luke 3:21-22, which is like the classical συνέβη+infitival main clause (Acts 21:35), but he NEVER uses the Hebraic subtype in Acts, even in the Temple or Paul's Hebrew speech.)

So one may ask, what would have been behind this phrase in Luke's Gospel, when the story was told in Hebrew?
Probably something like ויהי אחר הדברים האלה, which then makes the phrase ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς an additional refinement and curiousity.
For more discussion see: http://www.jerusalemperspective.com/13167/
RandallButh
Posts: 1105
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by RandallButh »

I see that the link in my comment above goes to a cover page needing a sign up.
I have permission to post the comments on the first two lines of the pericope. Unfortunately, the formatting and pictures don't appear to paste in. I'll try to partially edit.
Probably more than you asked for but informative:

Comment

Line1 καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς (Luke 7:11). The grammatical structure, subjectless ἐγένετο + time phrase (here: ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς) + finite verb (here: ἐπορεύθη), which appears in Luke 7:11, is characteristic of “translation Greek.”[3] Buth has shown that these grammatical structures are indicative of a Hebrew—not an Aramaic—vorlage representing the literary Hebrew narrative structure: impersonal וַיְהִי + setting + finite verb.[4]

Luke’s elliptical phrase ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς implies the word χρόνῳ and means “soon afterward” (Metzger, 142). The use of ἑξῆς is rare in LXX (6xx);[5] its meaning in the LXX is “in succession,” however there is no Hebrew antecedent that ἑξῆς translates. The paucity of ἑξῆς in the translation Greek of LXX stands in contrast to its frequent use by Greek authors.[6] In NT, ἑξῆς occurs 5xx, exclusively in Luke and 2 Acts.[7] The likelihood that the word ἑξῆς in Luke 7:11 is a product of Lukan redaction is, therefore, quite strong.

μετὰ ταῦτα (GR). Supposing that Luke’s ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς is redactional, we have reconstructed the reading of Luke’s pre-synoptic source as μετὰ ταῦτα (“after these things”), which frequently appears in LXX as the translation of אַחֲרֵי כֵן‎[8] and אַחַר הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה.‎[9]

וַיְהִי אַחַר הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה (HR). The opening phrase in L1 is difficult to reconstruct in Hebrew. The Hebraic construction, subjectless ἐγένετο + time phrase + finite verb, strongly suggests that the initial words of Luke 7:11 are based on a Hebrew Ur-text. On the other hand, ἐν τῷ ἑξῆς appears to be the product of Luke’s redaction. On the basis of the GreekReconstruction we have reconstructed the conjectured Hebrew Ur-text with וַיְהִי אַחַר הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה (“And it was after these things”). This phrase appears in 1 Kgs. 17:17 as the introduction to the story of Elijah and the raising of the widow of Zarephath’s son. This Elijah narrative influenced the telling of the raising of the Widow’s Son in Judean Nain (see below, Comment to Line18).

Line2 πόλιν (Luke 7:11). Lindsey commented that Luke’s reference to the village of Nain as a πόλις (polis, “city”) is a Hebraism (LHNS). The LXX antecedent of πόλις is the Hebrew עִיר, which has a range of meaning spanning every size settlement, from “hamlet” to “town” to “city.”

נָעִין (HR). As a toponym, נָעִים (na‘im) appears once in rabbinic literature:

ד”א יששכר חמור גרם, מדבר בארצו מה חמור זה נמוך מכאן ונמוך מכאן וגבוה באמצע, כך בקעה מכאן ובקעה מכאן והר מכאן, רובץ בין המשפתים, אלו ב’ בקעות, בקעת פסלן ובקעת יזרעאל, וירא מנוחה כי טוב, זו תנעם, ואת הארץ כי נעמה, זו נעים.‏‎

"Some interpret Issachar is a large-boned ass [Gen. 49:14] as alluding to his territory. As an ass is low on either flank and high in the middle, so [does his territory consist of] a plain on either side and a mountain ridge in the middle. Couching down between the sheepfolds refers to the two plains, the plain of Akeslo and the valley of Jezreel. For he saw a resting-place that it was good alludes to Tinam; And the land that it was pleasant, to Naim." (Gen. Rab. 98:12; Soncino)

This rabbinic tradition clearly refers to a town in the Galilee, where Issachar’s tribal allotment was located, and is identified with the modern Arab village of Nein, located about 5.5 miles (8.9 km) southeast of Nazareth in the vicinity of Mount Tabor.[10]

Since the fourth century C.E., Galilean Nain has been identified as the site where Yeshua raised the widow’s son to life (Eusebius, Onom. 104:3). Nevertheless, it is important to ask whether this identification is correct. According to Josephus, another Nain existed in Judea in the first century:[11]

"At a village called Nain [Ναΐν (Nain)],[12] he [Shim'on the son of Gioras of Gerash—DNB and JNT] erected a wall and used the place as a fortress to secure his position, taking advantage of the many convenient caves in the gorge known as Pheretae [Φερεταί (Pheretai)], widening some and finding others already suitable as storerooms for his plunder. There too he stored the grain he had pillaged, and billeted most of his troops. His object was obvious: he was training his army in preparation for an attack on Jerusalem." (J.W. 4:511-513; Loeb; cf. J.W. 4:517)

Image
The waters of the Perat spring flow through Wadi Kelt on their way towards Jericho. The caves along this canyon could have provided shelter to the brigands of Shimon Bar Giora's of whom the historian Josephus writes. Photograph by Todd Bolen. Photo © BiblePlaces.com

The waters of the Perat spring flow through Wadi Kelt on their way towards Jericho. The caves along this canyon could have provided shelter to the brigands of Shim’on Bar Giora of whom the historian Josephus writes. Photograph by Todd Bolen. Photo © BiblePlaces.com

Most scholars identify Pheretae with Ein Fara,[13] a spring in the Wadi Kelt,[14] where caves used as hideouts during the First Jewish Revolt and the Bar Kochva Revolt have been discovered.[15] The Nain to which Josephus referred was, therefore, probably located somewhere near the Wadi Kelt in the Judean desert northeast of Jerusalem.[16] Such a location for Judean Nain is reasonable since Shim‘on, who positioned his army in preparation for an attack on Jerusalem, would have wanted to be within striking distance. Again, this points to the western edge of the Judean desert.[17]

Image
Tell al-Qurein, the possible site of the Nain mentioned by Josephus, and perhaps, also, the location of the Nain in the Gospel of Luke. Photo: Jeffrey Magnuson. © JerusalemPerspective.com.

Tell al-Qurein, the possible site of the Nain mentioned by Josephus, and perhaps also the location of the Nain in the Gospel of Luke. Photo: Jeffrey Magnuson. © JerusalemPerspective.com.

The Judean Nain is a good candidate for the location of Yeshua’s miracle, since Luke states that the report about Yeshua’s miracle spread throughout Judea and the surrounding area (Luke 7:17; L24-26). Scholars have sometimes accused Luke of geographical imprecision, but perhaps a better explanation for Luke’s reference to “Judea” is that Luke preserves an authentic reading from Anth. As Lindsey noted (JRL, 61), Luke 4:44 alludes to a Judean ministry without, however, describing it.[18] This may be due to the editorial activity of the Anthologizer, who rearranged the order of the stories in the Greek Translation of the Hebrew Life of Yeshua, and may thus have inadvertently obscured Yeshua’s Judean ministry.[19]

We have reconstructed with Hebrew נָעִין (na‘in) to which the Greek spelling points. The final nun ending (instead of mem) was not unusual in the Hebrew spoken and written in the land of Israel in the first century.[20
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Very interesting article, looking at the issue from a different perspective. I enjoy fuller digressive discussions.

I have a Sunday School memory that Luke was a non-Jewish doctor. His Greek is obviously closer to good (unaffected) Greek than other contributors to the New Testament. He seems to be following native speaker models without going so far as Atticism.

Obviously he wouldn't have been able to read the English, but would Luke himself have been able to follow the article and specificly the discussion of the relationship between the Hebrew and Greek that it expresses? I have always assumed that Luke was in the same position as most if us, of hearing about places never having seen them.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
RandallButh
Posts: 1105
Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am

Re: Luke 7:11

Post by RandallButh »

Of course, Luke wouldn't have followed a discussion in English. However, a lot of profiles given about Luke are inaccurate. For example, although the last half of Acts shows a writer of good Hellenistic Greek, the Gospel shows a schizophrenic style, mixing Greek norms with non-Greek norms. The traditional answer for that is "Luke imitated the LXX." But that explanation has serious flaws. It doesn't explain "non-Septuagintal Hebraisms" nor stylistic inconsistencies. Sometimes Hebraisms are modified into Greek word order or otherwise smoothed out, as if Luke is trying not to imitate the LXX. (In Luke 7.11 Luke has the Hebraic form of the impersonal egeneto with a Greekish time phrase en tw eksew.) Sometimes in the most Jewish or Jerusalem of contexts one finds good Greek or better Greek. Sometimes Luke strings a bunch of KAI connectors together for an insipid story, sometimes he gets in some good Greek nuancing. The problem in scholarship, following Sparks and others, is that Luke's style would imply a major source that was not Mark or matthew/Q. So the data that breaks the "LXX imitation" hypothesis is swept under the rug. This is sometimes laughable, like comments to the effect "this idiom comes from Hebrew and the LXX, only Luke's form doesn't follow the LXX [see Fitzmyer in several places, 9:44 put it in ears' comes to mind]. Theories are preferred over data. NT people also noticed that Luke's source would require literary Hebrew and sometimes even colloquial Hebrew somewhere in the background chain, something has not been part of the worldview of most NT criticism in the 20th century, yet could almost be predicted for a messianic end-time community in Jerusalem, following norms like 1Maccabees and reinforced by what is found in another messianic end-time community at Qumran. It would help if gospel scholars controlled their Hebrew and Greek to a higher level. Why they are not fluent in Hebrew seems crazy given the massive amount of Hebrew data for the period and culture.

In the article above, how many commentaries note that there was a Judean Nain mentioned by Josephus? How many commentaries incorrectly mention that Luke's geography was offbase? Few to the first question many to the latter. But Luke spent a couple of years in the Land according to Acts and it wouldn't hurt NT commentators to become more acquainted with the data. Luke is the one who correctly names the λίμνη, not Matthew or Mark with their θάλασσα. Yet the hamlet of Nain is called a πόλις. Go figure! [The use of πόλις is a classic Hebraism, Josephus uses the standard Greek κώμη "village" for Judean Nain.]
Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”