Rev2:23ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ,6:11αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ,21:21ἀνὰ εἷς ἕκαστος

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Re: Rev2:23ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ,6:11αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ,21:21ἀνὰ εἷς ἕκαστο

Post by cwconrad » October 31st, 2014, 8:43 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:What I want to do is to make a translation in English which reflects the un-Greekness of the Greek in a few sample verses, to do that, I think I will need to know what good Greek might have been, and based on the apparent error, I would need to make a similar error in the English.

Before I work on the bad English, can anybody see something unidiomatic in the Greek of these three verses, which I have missed?
. . .
I think this is an interesting idea, but it seems to me a project fraught with questions that need to be asked and problems that need to be solved. Some of your guesses (e.g., converting ὅτε clauses into genitive-absolute constructions) strike me as involving more stylistic preference than standard idiom (Luke's gospel certainly prefers the genitive-absolute construction, but are the ὅτε constructions in Matthew and elsewhere unidiomatic?). Can we point to a standardized "style-sheet" for an apocalypse, particularly one that calls for regular idiomatic expression of particular envisioned scenes? Of course there are several apocalypses in the OT (Daniel), the NT (Mark and the parallels in Mt and Lk), and especially in the extra-Biblical literature. There's Enoch, of course. At any rate, I would guess that the style would differ in several features from that of a historical narrative.

Then there's the matter of representing irregular/unconventional Greek usage in a document composed in English using a comparable irregular/unconventional English. My guess is that this would be less a translation than it would be a literary impression or imitation of the style of Revelation, a tour de force not really akin to but reminiscent of the weird Etymological New Testament: An ultra literal translation of the Bible ( ... ap_title_0).

Before proceeding with this project, it might be worth your while to look at the effort of Richmond Lattimore, a well-reputed literary translator of Greek verse into English, to convert Revelation as well as the gospels into English ( ... 0671419870), reviewed ... 4930741317.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev2:23ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ,6:11αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ,21:21ἀνὰ εἷς ἕκαστο

Post by Stephen Hughes » November 4th, 2014, 10:40 am

Is ordering an utterance treated as part of marking it, or are the two of them treated as theoretically separate parts of overall production of an utterance?
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Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

David Lim
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Re: Rev2:23ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ,6:11αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ,21:21ἀνὰ εἷς ἕκαστο

Post by David Lim » December 16th, 2014, 8:28 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Revelations 2:23 wrote:καὶ δώσω ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ κατὰ τὰ ἔργα ὑμῶν.
Revelations 6:11 wrote:Καὶ ἐδόθη αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ στολὴ λευκή
Is there an explanation why ὑμῖν ἑκάστῳ would have been written that way rather than ἑκάστῳ ὑμῶν, or αὐτοῖς ἑκάστῳ rather than ἑκάστῳ αὐτῶν? There must have been a systematic error in the authour's understanding of Greek syntax to prompt them to produce the same syntax consistently. They clearly feel that the group should be mentioned before the individual

The same (mis-)understanding also seems to be implied in Revelations 20:13
Revelations 20:13 wrote:καὶ ἐκρίθησαν ἕκαστος κατὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν.
Which if it had agreement between verb and subject would be καὶ ἐκρίθησαν {αὐτοὶ} ἕκαστος κατὰ τὰ ἔργα αὐτῶν, which might imply that they felt that the verb ἐκρίθησαν itself implied enough of the subject.

Is there something about how a similar word is used in another language, or is this an indication of a later development?
I don't see what's syntactically wrong with having "εκαστος" immediately after a reference to a group, in which case the phrase beginning with "εκαστος" is some kind of adverbial complement for the verb. The group is referred to before the individual in many places including LXX Gen 34:25, 41:11, 43:33, Exo 5:4, ... and the NT:

[John 16:32] ιδου ερχεται ωρα και νυν εληλυθεν ινα σκορπισθητε εκαστος εις τα ιδια και εμε μονον αφητε και ουκ ειμι μονος οτι ο πατηρ μετ εμου εστιν
[Acts 2:8] και πως ημεις ακουομεν εκαστος τη ιδια διαλεκτω ημων εν η εγεννηθημεν
- (Note the plural "ημων"! In most other instances the singular is used.)
[Acts 11:29] των δε μαθητων καθως ευπορειτο τις ωρισαν εκαστος αυτων εις διακονιαν πεμψαι τοις κατοικουσιν εν τη ιουδαια αδελφοις
- (Note the singular in the other adverbial phrase "καθως ευπορειτο τις" modifying "ωρισαν".)
[1 Cor 12:18] νυνι δε ο θεος εθετο τα μελη εν εκαστον αυτων εν τω σωματι καθως ηθελησεν
[Heb 8:11 from Jer 31:34] και ου μη διδαξωσιν εκαστος τον πολιτην αυτου και εκαστος τον αδελφον αυτου λεγων γνωθι τον κυριον οτι παντες ειδησουσιν με απο μικρου αυτων εως μεγαλου αυτων

The following have an explicit plural noun or pronoun preceding "εκαστος":
[Num 4:19] τουτο ποιησατε αυτοις και ζησονται και ου μη αποθανωσιν προσπορευομενων αυτων προς τα αγια των αγιων ααρων και οι υιοι αυτου προσπορευεσθωσαν και καταστησουσιν αυτους εκαστον κατα την αναφοραν αυτου
[Num 7:5] λαβε παρ αυτων και εσονται προς τα εργα τα λειτουργικα της σκηνης του μαρτυριου και δωσεις αυτα τοις λευιταις εκαστω κατα την αυτου λειτουργιαν
[1 Kg 20:24] και το ρημα τουτο ποιησον αποστησον τους βασιλεις εκαστον εις τον τοπον αυτων και θου αντ αυτων σατραπας
[2 Chr 31:2] και εταξεν εζεκιας τας εφημεριας των ιερεων και των λευιτων και τας εφημεριας εκαστου κατα την εαυτου λειτουργιαν τοις ιερευσιν και τοις λευιταις εις την ολοκαυτωσιν και εις την θυσιαν του σωτηριου και αινειν και εξομολογεισθαι και λειτουργειν εν ταις πυλαις εν ταις αυλαις οικου κυριου
[Jer 12:15] και εσται μετα το εκβαλειν με αυτους επιστρεψω και ελεησω αυτους και κατοικιω αυτους εκαστον εις την κληρονομιαν αυτου και εκαστον εις την γην αυτου
[Hag 2:22] και καταστρεψω θρονους βασιλεων και ολεθρευσω δυναμιν βασιλεων των εθνων και καταστρεψω αρματα και αναβατας και καταβησονται ιπποι και αναβαται αυτων εκαστος εν ρομφαια προς τον αδελφον αυτου
[Zech 10:1] αιτεισθε υετον παρα κυριου καθ ωραν προιμον και οψιμον κυριος εποιησεν φαντασιας και υετον χειμερινον δωσει αυτοις εκαστω βοτανην εν αγρω
[Zech 8:10] διοτι προ των ημερων εκεινων ο μισθος των ανθρωπων ουκ εσται εις ονησιν και ο μισθος των κτηνων ουχ υπαρξει και τω εκπορευομενω και τω εισπορευομενω ουκ εσται ειρηνη απο της θλιψεως και εξαποστελω παντας τους ανθρωπους εκαστον επι τον πλησιον αυτου
[Zech 11:6] δια τουτο ου φεισομαι ουκετι επι τους κατοικουντας την γην λεγει κυριος και ιδου εγω παραδιδωμι τους ανθρωπους εκαστον εις χειρας του πλησιον αυτου και εις χειρας βασιλεως αυτου και κατακοψουσιν την γην και ου μη εξελωμαι εκ χειρος αυτων
[Zech 13:4] και εσται εν τη ημερα εκεινη καταισχυνθησονται οι προφηται εκαστος εκ της ορασεως αυτου εν τω προφητευειν αυτον και ενδυσονται δερριν τριχινην ανθ ων εψευσαντο

One interesting case is:
[Num 11:10] και ηκουσεν μωυσης κλαιοντων αυτων κατα δημους αυτων εκαστον επι της θυρας αυτου και εθυμωθη οργη κυριος σφοδρα και εναντι μωυση ην πονηρον
- ("εκαστον" is accusative, instead of matching the genitive object of "ηκουσεν" like in 2 Chr 31:2 above.)

So I don't see anything wrong with the three verses you cited:
[Rev 2:23] and I give to you, to each according to their works.
[Rev 6:11] and [he] gave to them, to each [a] white robe.
[Rev 20:13] and [they] were judged, each according to their works.

Did you see Rev 5:8 too?
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