Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

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Stephen Hughes
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Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 24th, 2014, 1:36 pm

In the story of Paul's meeting with Cornelius, Cornelius kneels, and Paul asks him to stand up saying:
Acts 10:26 wrote:κἀγὼ αὐτὸς ἄνθρωπός εἰμι.
Of course the general gist of this is easy enough to get here, but I would like to better understand what the actual effect of the αὐτός here is?

My thoughts are; Is it "as well as you" (like any other), or <pointing at myself> (the guy right here), "only" (and nothing more than a man), "truly" (ditto on the "I"), or something else?
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David Lim
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by David Lim » December 25th, 2014, 7:28 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:My thoughts are; Is it "as well as you" (like any other), or <pointing at myself> (the guy right here), "only" (and nothing more than a man), "truly" (ditto on the "I"), or something else?
For Acts 10:26 I would say it's "I am a man just as you.", but based solely on the context. Even in English as a native speaker I cannot distinguish between your options of "I as well as you" and "I right here" and "I truly/indeed" in the solitary phrase "I myself" removed from its context, and neither can the Greek 'intensive pronoun' "αυτος" by itself single out any one meaning in my opinion, not to say that it also functions as an ordinary pronoun in some places.

Just a few examples of the various possible usages of "αυτος" (and how I would classify them):
"personally"
Acts 25:22
2 Cor 10:1
"as one involved"
Mark 12:36
1 Cor 9:27
"as well as [an]other[s]"
Mark 15:43
Acts 22:20
"instead of others"
Luke 6:42
"truly/indeed"
Luke 24:39
"right [t]here"
Rom 9:3
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 26th, 2014, 2:23 am

David Lim wrote:Even in English as a native speaker I cannot distinguish between your options of "I as well as you" and "I right here" and "I truly/indeed" in the solitary phrase "I myself" removed from its context, and neither can the Greek 'intensive pronoun' "αυτος" by itself single out any one meaning in my opinion, not to say that it also functions as an ordinary pronoun in some places.
Thanks for your discussion David. Yes, I think you've understood my question better than I expressed it... It arose from considering, "Myself, I would eat it.", "I will eat it myself", "I myself will eat it.", "I will eat it by myself". Compared with the subtlety and nuance that I can recognise and express in English, what little Greek I know seems so clunky and staged - a blunt and unwieldy instrument in unskilled hands.

This question is part of a larger consideration of syntax elements that that have been rumbling about in the grey-matter recently. Over the past few months, I've been trying to note just how much of the Greek I think I know is simply substituting English equivalences. It is surprising the extent of it. :o There is so much about the basic structures of the language that I just sort of mumble over in English. One thing that I have little idea about is word-order. We know that word order is my "flexible", and I'm wondering if it is significant here??

Obviously something like this is not something that can be explained in an afternoon, but to leave it undiscussed would be a disservice.

While monitoring my thinking about pronouns as I read, I just always translate and substitute "he". But looking at it, in the third person, the αὐτὸς is often a lot sharper / more poignant / the sense is a lot keener than a simple English "he" that we as native speakers of English are used to dealing with.
Matthew 14:2 wrote:Οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστής· αὐτὸς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο αἱ δυνάμεις ἐνεργοῦσιν ἐν αὐτῷ.
We are told that the use of αὐτὸς with the internal subject of a verb is less emphatic than when the external subject is added to the first or second person. But here it seems stronger than "he". Perhaps something like "he himself", "It's he, who". Taking third person αὐτὸς as a grammatical function word, rather than a one-for-one equivalence translation, we could perhaps look at something like
Revelations 21:3 wrote:αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς ἔσται μετ’ αὐτῶν
which is emphatic, is something like, "It is God, who will be with them", but again the nuance is elusive.

I realise from our previous discussions that you are not a fan of considering alternatives to the s for the question about what would be the difference in meaning if ὅς were to have been used instead of αὐτὸς in this passage, as in
Matthew 13:23 wrote:οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τὸν λόγον ἀκούων καὶ συνιών· ὃς δὴ καρποφορεῖ, καὶ ποιεῖ
. It doesn't seem that the use of αὐτὸς or ὃς makes the passages any less or more connected, but that adds something like our "himself" to the meaning.
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by David Lim » December 26th, 2014, 6:42 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:Yes, I think you've understood my question better than I expressed it... It arose from considering, "Myself, I would eat it.", "I will eat it myself", "I myself will eat it.", "I will eat it by myself".
The first would sound a bit strange to modern ears but should mean exactly the same as the second but with emphasis on "myself", where "myself" specifies "how the eating will be done". The third is different and "myself" specifies "who really will do the eating". The fourth usually implies "I don't need others to help me eat it".
One thing that I have little idea about is word-order. We know that word order is my "flexible", and I'm wondering if it is significant here??
I suspect that it is precisely because it is more flexible that the position of "αυτος" is not really used to distinguish its usages, unlike in the English examples you brought up above, except when it comes immediately after an article, whence you know that it is functioning as an adjective and not an adverb. I think there are enough occurrences in the LXX+NT to do a statistical analysis of the usages to determine whether my suspicion is right or not, but it would be much easier if someone who is very familiar with its usages can already tell us the answer! :)
Over the past few months, I've been trying to note just how much of the Greek I think I know is simply substituting English equivalences. It is surprising the extent of it. :o There is so much about the basic structures of the language that I just sort of mumble over in English.
There are some Greek syntax for which I have roughly English equivalents that come to mind immediately, and I do use them but add mental modifications to try to get a better approximation of the Greek meaning. Of course, it is impossible for me to express those modifications in English. There are other parts of Greek syntax for which I have no rough equivalents and just keep it in Greek. I read somewhere before that people tend to think in their native language[s], and that's what I find happening in myself. But I think one can avoid the pitfall of substituting equivalents by attaching mental notes to the approximations as part of the mental 'translation', instead of translating first and then mentally contemplating the English result. Incidentally, I have observed that many people in fact misinterpret many modern English translations even if the translators didn't make a mistake, simply because they wrongly assumed what some phrase modifies due to some ambiguity in the English. So I do think that translation done blindly doesn't work at all, but I think it's okay to utilize some of our native languages as containers to help hold the mental understanding of the Greek text, as long as we also put mental labels on them so that we know what it is about the container that describes the content and what doesn't. Of course, after a while commonly used phrases revert to being in Greek and we don't need the containers anymore, but at least for me it takes some time because I first learn the meanings through a Greek-English lexicon...
While monitoring my thinking about pronouns as I read, I just always translate and substitute "he". But looking at it, in the third person, the αὐτὸς is often a lot sharper / more poignant / the sense is a lot keener than a simple English "he" that we as native speakers of English are used to dealing with.
Matthew 14:2 wrote:Οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστής· αὐτὸς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο αἱ δυνάμεις ἐνεργοῦσιν ἐν αὐτῷ.
We are told that the use of αὐτὸς with the internal subject of a verb is less emphatic than when the external subject is added to the first or second person. But here it seems stronger than "he". Perhaps something like "he himself", "It's he, who". Taking third person αὐτὸς as a grammatical function word, rather than a one-for-one equivalence translation, we could perhaps look at something like
Revelations 21:3 wrote:αὐτὸς ὁ θεὸς ἔσται μετ’ αὐτῶν
which is emphatic, is something like, "It is God, who will be with them", but again the nuance is elusive.
In Rev 21:3 "αυτος" clearly must function adverbially in the sense of "God himself (in person) will be with them", but it's not clear in Matt 14:2 at all. Even less clear is Matt 12:50 ("οστις γαρ αν ποιηση το θελημα του πατρος μου του εν ουρανοις αυτος μου αδελφος και αδελφη και μητηρ εστιν"). What do you think it really means? Does the personal pronoun have emphasis, like "he is my brother and sister and mother" or paraphrased "it is he who is my brother and sister and mother"? Or is it merely there to refer back to the referent of "οστις", to make it smoother?
I realise from our previous discussions that you are not a fan of considering alternatives to the s for the question about what would be the difference in meaning if ὅς were to have been used instead of αὐτὸς in this passage, as in
Matthew 13:23 wrote:οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τὸν λόγον ἀκούων καὶ συνιών· ὃς δὴ καρποφορεῖ, καὶ ποιεῖ
. It doesn't seem that the use of αὐτὸς or ὃς makes the passages any less or more connected, but that adds something like our "himself" to the meaning.
I don't have a problem considering alternatives as long as it isn't assumed that they must all have distinct meanings. In my opinion the evidence shows that in each specific context there are usually multiple ways to express exactly the same thing, and choice does not matter, even though the multiple ways could mean different things in other contexts.

In this case, the two sentence structures are completely different. Matt 14:2 has "αυτος" referring to "ουτος", stating that "he was raised from the dead and ...". Matt 13:23 has "ουτος" referring to "ος"; "this is the one who hears the word and understands: indeed [he] who bears fruit and produces". So we can't even compare them.
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 26th, 2014, 10:45 am

Matthew 14:2 wrote:Οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστής· αὐτὸς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο αἱ δυνάμεις ἐνεργοῦσιν ἐν αὐτῷ.
David Lim wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:I realise from our previous discussions that you are not a fan of considering alternatives to the s for the question about what would be the difference in meaning if ὅς were to have been used instead of αὐτὸς in this passage, as in
Matthew 13:23 wrote:οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τὸν λόγον ἀκούων καὶ συνιών· ὃς δὴ καρποφορεῖ, καὶ ποιεῖ
. It doesn't seem that the use of αὐτὸς or ὃς makes the passages any less or more connected, but that adds something like our "himself" to the meaning.
I don't have a problem considering alternatives as long as it isn't assumed that they must all have distinct meanings. In my opinion the evidence shows that in each specific context there are usually multiple ways to express exactly the same thing, and choice does not matter, even though the multiple ways could mean different things in other contexts.

In this case, the two sentence structures are completely different. Matt 14:2 has "αυτος" referring to "ουτος", stating that "he was raised from the dead and ...". Matt 13:23 has "ουτος" referring to "ος"; "this is the one who hears the word and understands: indeed [he] who bears fruit and produces". So we can't even compare them.
They seem quite similar to me.

Okay, let's go beyond comparing them... If a baby was crying in church, or the lector either coughed OR had a frog in his throat while reading the ὃς or αὐτὸς respectively, it would be up to the hearer to supply the word. How would they make the correct choice?
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by David Lim » December 28th, 2014, 8:54 am

Matthew 14:2 wrote:Οὗτός ἐστιν Ἰωάννης ὁ βαπτιστής· αὐτὸς ἠγέρθη ἀπὸ τῶν νεκρῶν, καὶ διὰ τοῦτο αἱ δυνάμεις ἐνεργοῦσιν ἐν αὐτῷ.
Matthew 13:23 wrote:... οὗτός ἐστιν ὁ τὸν λόγον ἀκούων καὶ συνιών· ὃς δὴ καρποφορεῖ, καὶ ποιεῖ
Stephen Hughes wrote:
David Lim wrote:In this case, the two sentence structures are completely different. Matt 14:2 has "αυτος" referring to "ουτος", stating that "he was raised from the dead and ...". Matt 13:23 has "ουτος" referring to "ος"; "this is the one who hears the word and understands: indeed [he] who bears fruit and produces". So we can't even compare them.
They seem quite similar to me.

Okay, let's go beyond comparing them... If a baby was crying in church, or the lector either coughed OR had a frog in his throat while reading the ὃς or αὐτὸς respectively, it would be up to the hearer to supply the word. How would they make the correct choice?
Oh the reason I thought they were different was because you quoted Matt 13:23 without the preceding part and so I thought "ουτος" was pointing forward. Now that I have looked at the text, the only difference I can see between the two is that Matt 14:2 splits into two separate statements while Matt 13:23 is essentially one statement. I'm not a speaker or listener of Greek so I can't answer your question haha..
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 29th, 2014, 1:17 am

David Lim wrote:Oh the reason I thought they were different was because you quoted Matt 13:23 without the preceding part and so I thought "ουτος" was pointing forward.
I'd be interested to see instances of where οὖτος "point[s] forward".
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by David Lim » December 29th, 2014, 12:05 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
David Lim wrote:Oh the reason I thought they were different was because you quoted Matt 13:23 without the preceding part and so I thought "ουτος" was pointing forward.
I'd be interested to see instances of where οὖτος "point[s] forward".
Here are some (John likes them a lot):

[Gen 10:1] αυται δε αι γενεσεις των υιων νωε σημ χαμ ιαφεθ και εγενηθησαν αυτοις υιοι μετα τον κατακλυσμον
[Gen 25:7] ταυτα δε τα ετη ημερων ζωης αβρααμ οσα εζησεν εκατον εβδομηκοντα πεντε ετη
[Gen 25:13] και ταυτα τα ονοματα των υιων ισμαηλ κατ ονομα των γενεων αυτου πρωτοτοκος ισμαηλ ναβαιωθ και κηδαρ και ναβδεηλ και μασσαμ
[Exo 16:16] τουτο το ρημα ο συνεταξεν κυριος συναγαγετε απ αυτου εκαστος εις τους καθηκοντας γομορ κατα κεφαλην κατα αριθμον ψυχων υμων εκαστος συν τοις συσκηνιοις υμων συλλεξατε
[Exo 28:4] και αυται αι στολαι ας ποιησουσιν το περιστηθιον και την επωμιδα και τον ποδηρη και χιτωνα κοσυμβωτον και κιδαριν και ζωνην και ποιησουσιν στολας αγιας ααρων και τοις υιοις αυτου εις το ιερατευειν μοι
[Exo 30:13] και τουτο εστιν ο δωσουσιν οσοι αν παραπορευωνται την επισκεψιν το ημισυ του διδραχμου ο εστιν κατα το διδραχμον το αγιον εικοσι οβολοι το διδραχμον το δε ημισυ του διδραχμου εισφορα κυριω
[Jer 31:33-34] οτι αυτη η διαθηκη ην διαθησομαι τω οικω ισραηλ μετα τας ημερας εκεινας φησιν κυριος διδους δωσω νομους μου εις την διανοιαν αυτων και επι καρδιας αυτων γραψω αυτους και εσομαι αυτοις εις θεον και αυτοι εσονται μοι εις λαον και ου μη διδαξωσιν εκαστος τον πολιτην αυτου και εκαστος τον αδελφον αυτου λεγων γνωθι τον κυριον οτι παντες ειδησουσιν με απο μικρου αυτων και εως μεγαλου αυτων οτι ιλεως εσομαι ταις αδικιαις αυτων και των αμαρτιων αυτων ου μη μνησθω ετι
[Mark 12:10] ουδε την γραφην ταυτην ανεγνωτε λιθον ον απεδοκιμασαν οι οικοδομουντες ουτος εγενηθη εις κεφαλην γωνιας
[John 1:19] και αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια του ιωαννου οτε απεστειλαν οι ιουδαιοι εξ ιεροσολυμων ιερεις και λευιτας ινα ερωτησωσιν αυτον συ τις ει
[John 3:19] αυτη δε εστιν η κρισις οτι το φως εληλυθεν εις τον κοσμον και ηγαπησαν οι ανθρωποι μαλλον το σκοτος η το φως ην γαρ πονηρα αυτων τα εργα
[John 6:29] απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτοις τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος
[John 6:39,40] τουτο δε εστιν το θελημα του πεμψαντος με πατρος ινα παν ο δεδωκεν μοι μη απολεσω εξ αυτου αλλα αναστησω αυτο τη εσχατη ημερα τουτο δε εστιν το θελημα του πεμψαντος με ινα πας ο θεωρων τον υιον και πιστευων εις αυτον εχη ζωην αιωνιον και αναστησω αυτον εγω τη εσχατη ημερα
[John 7:36] τις εστιν ουτος ο λογος ον ειπεν ζητησετε με και ουχ ευρησετε και οπου ειμι εγω υμεις ου δυνασθε ελθειν
[John 9:30] απεκριθη ο ανθρωπος και ειπεν αυτοις εν γαρ τουτω θαυμαστον εστιν οτι υμεις ουκ οιδατε ποθεν εστιν και ανεωξεν μου τους οφθαλμους (It's a dative!)
[John 15:12] αυτη εστιν η εντολη η εμη ινα αγαπατε αλληλους καθως ηγαπησα υμας
[John 16:17,18] ειπον ουν εκ των μαθητων αυτου προς αλληλους τι εστιν τουτο ο λεγει ημιν μικρον και ου θεωρειτε με και παλιν μικρον και οψεσθε με και οτι εγω υπαγω προς τον πατερα ελεγον ουν τι εστιν τουτο ο λεγει το μικρον ουκ οιδαμεν τι λαλει
[John 17:3] αυτη δε εστιν η αιωνιος ζωη ινα γινωσκωσιν σε τον μονον αληθινον θεον και ον απεστειλας ιησουν χριστον
[Rom 9:8] επαγγελιας γαρ ο λογος ουτος κατα τον καιρον τουτον ελευσομαι και εσται τη σαρρα υιος
[2 Cor 9:6] τουτο δε ο σπειρων φειδομενως φειδομενως και θερισει και ο σπειρων επ ευλογιαις επ ευλογιαις και θερισει
[Eph 5:5] τουτο γαρ εστε γινωσκοντες οτι πας πορνος η ακαθαρτος η πλεονεκτης ος εστιν ειδωλολατρης ουκ εχει κληρονομιαν εν τη βασιλεια του χριστου και θεου
[1 Thes 4:3] τουτο γαρ εστιν θελημα του θεου ο αγιασμος υμων απεχεσθαι υμας απο της πορνειας
[1 Pet 2:19] τουτο γαρ χαρις ει δια συνειδησιν θεου υποφερει τις λυπας πασχων αδικως
[1 John 2:25] και αυτη εστιν η επαγγελια ην αυτος επηγγειλατο ημιν την ζωην την αιωνιον
[1 John 3:11] οτι αυτη εστιν η αγγελια ην ηκουσατε απ αρχης ινα αγαπωμεν αλληλους
[1 John 3:23] και αυτη εστιν η εντολη αυτου ινα πιστευσωμεν τω ονοματι του υιου αυτου ιησου χριστου και αγαπωμεν αλληλους καθως εδωκεν εντολην
[1 John 5:3] αυτη γαρ εστιν η αγαπη του θεου ινα τας εντολας αυτου τηρωμεν και αι εντολαι αυτου βαρειαι ουκ εισιν
[1 John 5:11] και αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια οτι ζωην αιωνιον εδωκεν ημιν ο θεος και αυτη η ζωη εν τω υιω αυτου εστιν
[1 John 5:14] και αυτη εστιν η παρρησια ην εχομεν προς αυτον οτι εαν τι αιτωμεθα κατα το θελημα αυτου ακουει ημων
[2 John 1:6] και αυτη εστιν η αγαπη ινα περιπατωμεν κατα τας εντολας αυτου αυτη εστιν η εντολη καθως ηκουσατε απ αρχης ινα εν αυτη περιπατητε
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Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by Stephen Hughes » December 29th, 2014, 1:56 pm

David Lim wrote:
Stephen Hughes wrote:
David Lim wrote:Oh the reason I thought they were different was because you quoted Matt 13:23 without the preceding part and so I thought "ουτος" was pointing forward.
I'd be interested to see instances of where οὖτος "point[s] forward".
Here are some (John likes them a lot):
...
[John 1:19] και αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια του ιωαννου οτε απεστειλαν οι ιουδαιοι εξ ιεροσολυμων ιερεις και λευιτας ινα ερωτησωσιν αυτον συ τις ει
...
[John 6:29] απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτοις τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος
Okay, I think I know what you mean by "pointing forward"... It's used with a verb to be. Have I got you right on that?

I think it encapsulates something immediacy proceeding it, and expresses it in a word which can be worked into a sentence. Look at John 1:15 - 19
John 1:15-19 (Words of John in light orange) wrote:15 Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων, Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον, Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν· ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν.
16 Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν , καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.
17 Ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
19 ¶Καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου, ὅτε ἀπέστειλαν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐξ Ἱεροσολύμων ἱερεῖς καὶ Λευΐτας ἵνα ἐρωτήσωσιν αὐτόν, Σὺ τίς εἶ;
Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων, marks the beginning of what is said, then his μαρτυρία is given (in light orange). Rather than say, "Οὗτος-ἦν-ὃν-εἶπον,-Ὁ-ὀπίσω-μου ... ἐκεῖνος-ἐξηγήσατο." ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου, ὅτε ἀπέστειλαν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ... , the αὕτη says, "That which you've just heard / read" ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου.

Which direction would you say that that that (i.e. αὕτη) is pointing?

For another one of your examples from John, I think it worth looking at a wider context there too.
John 6:26-30 wrote:26 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ζητεῖτέ με, οὐχ ὅτι εἴδετε σημεῖα, ἀλλ’ ὅτι ἐφάγετε ἐκ τῶν ἄρτων καὶ ἐχορτάσθητε.
27 Ἐργάζεσθε μὴ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν ἀπολλυμένην, ἀλλὰ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν μένουσαν εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, ἣν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὑμῖν δώσει· τοῦτον [referring to the ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου that we've just been hearing talk about] γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ἐσφράγισεν, ὁ θεός.
28 Εἶπον οὖν πρὸς αὐτόν, Τί ποιῶμεν, ἵνα ἐργαζώμεθα τὰ ἔργα τοῦ θεοῦ; [= Sounds good, how can we do like your disciples just now did?]
29 Ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Τοῦτό [that miracle that you witnessed / were a part of, which left you sated] ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύσητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος. [= not just for you to eat lunch, which of course is good too.]
30 Εἶπον οὖν αὐτῷ, Τί οὖν ποιεῖς σὺ σημεῖον, ἵνα ἴδωμεν καὶ πιστεύσωμέν σοι; Τί ἐργάζῃ; [What sign will you yourself make, so that when we've see it we might also come to believe in you? What will you perform?]
It seems that both of those - τοῦτον and Τοῦτό - refer back to or reiterate something mentioned before.
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(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)

David Lim
Posts: 901
Joined: June 6th, 2011, 6:55 am

Re: Acts 10:26 The sense of αὐτός in the first person

Post by David Lim » December 30th, 2014, 8:27 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
David Lim wrote:...
[John 1:19] και αυτη εστιν η μαρτυρια του ιωαννου οτε απεστειλαν οι ιουδαιοι εξ ιεροσολυμων ιερεις και λευιτας ινα ερωτησωσιν αυτον συ τις ει
...
[John 6:29] απεκριθη ιησους και ειπεν αυτοις τουτο εστιν το εργον του θεου ινα πιστευσητε εις ον απεστειλεν εκεινος
Okay, I think I know what you mean by "pointing forward"... It's used with a verb to be. Have I got you right on that?
No, when I say "pointing forward" I mean that the referent (also called the antecedent) is not yet specified. Typical use of the demonstrative is to refer to something previously specified, but not always. Syntactically, this has nothing to do with what verb is used, though in practice it often will be used with an equative verb. In English similarly, we can use the demonstrative "this" to point forward, such as "This is what you must do: ..." or "I prefer this: ...", where "this" does not have to be used with an equative, nor does it have to be the subject.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I think it encapsulates something immediacy proceeding it, and expresses it in a word which can be worked into a sentence. Look at John 1:15 - 19
John 1:15-19 (Words of John in light orange) wrote:15 Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων, Οὗτος ἦν ὃν εἶπον, Ὁ ὀπίσω μου ἐρχόμενος ἔμπροσθέν μου γέγονεν· ὅτι πρῶτός μου ἦν.
16 Καὶ ἐκ τοῦ πληρώματος αὐτοῦ ἡμεῖς πάντες ἐλάβομεν , καὶ χάριν ἀντὶ χάριτος.
17 Ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωσέως ἐδόθη, ἡ χάρις καὶ ἡ ἀλήθεια διὰ Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ ἐγένετο.
18 Θεὸν οὐδεὶς ἑώρακεν πώποτε· ὁ μονογενὴς υἱός, ὁ ὢν εἰς τὸν κόλπον τοῦ πατρός, ἐκεῖνος ἐξηγήσατο.
19 ¶Καὶ αὕτη ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου, ὅτε ἀπέστειλαν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ἐξ Ἱεροσολύμων ἱερεῖς καὶ Λευΐτας ἵνα ἐρωτήσωσιν αὐτόν, Σὺ τίς εἶ;
Ἰωάννης μαρτυρεῖ περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ κέκραγεν λέγων, marks the beginning of what is said, then his μαρτυρία is given (in light orange). Rather than say, "Οὗτος-ἦν-ὃν-εἶπον,-Ὁ-ὀπίσω-μου ... ἐκεῖνος-ἐξηγήσατο." ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου, ὅτε ἀπέστειλαν οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι ... , the αὕτη says, "That which you've just heard / read" ἐστὶν ἡ μαρτυρία τοῦ Ἰωάννου.

Which direction would you say that that that (i.e. αὕτη) is pointing?
This goes into interpretation, but if you ask me I disagree with yours. In my interpretation, John the immerser only says "ουτος ην ον ειπον ο οπισω μου ερχομενος εμπροσθεν μου γεγονεν οτι πρωτος μου ην" and then the narrator continues with his narration. John the immerser does not know at that time that the one he had been sent before was Jesus. Also, the "testimony of John" does not refer to anything previously stated, but to his testimony "when the Jews sent forth out of Jerusalem priests and Levites so that they might ask him: who are you?".
Stephen Hughes wrote:For another one of your examples from John, I think it worth looking at a wider context there too.
John 6:26-30 wrote:26 Ἀπεκρίθη αὐτοῖς ὁ Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν, Ἀμὴν ἀμὴν λέγω ὑμῖν, ζητεῖτέ με, οὐχ ὅτι εἴδετε σημεῖα, ἀλλ’ ὅτι ἐφάγετε ἐκ τῶν ἄρτων καὶ ἐχορτάσθητε.
27 Ἐργάζεσθε μὴ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν ἀπολλυμένην, ἀλλὰ τὴν βρῶσιν τὴν μένουσαν εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον, ἣν ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου ὑμῖν δώσει· τοῦτον [referring to the ὁ υἱὸς τοῦ ἀνθρώπου that we've just been hearing talk about] γὰρ ὁ πατὴρ ἐσφράγισεν, ὁ θεός.
28 Εἶπον οὖν πρὸς αὐτόν, Τί ποιῶμεν, ἵνα ἐργαζώμεθα τὰ ἔργα τοῦ θεοῦ; [= Sounds good, how can we do like your disciples just now did?]
29 Ἀπεκρίθη Ἰησοῦς καὶ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς, Τοῦτό [that miracle that you witnessed / were a part of, which left you sated] ἐστιν τὸ ἔργον τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα πιστεύσητε εἰς ὃν ἀπέστειλεν ἐκεῖνος. [= not just for you to eat lunch, which of course is good too.]
30 Εἶπον οὖν αὐτῷ, Τί οὖν ποιεῖς σὺ σημεῖον, ἵνα ἴδωμεν καὶ πιστεύσωμέν σοι; Τί ἐργάζῃ; [What sign will you yourself make, so that when we've see it we might also come to believe in you? What will you perform?]
It seems that both of those - τοῦτον and Τοῦτό - refer back to or reiterate something mentioned before.
"ινα" is often enough used not to indicate purpose of something previously stated but as the 'syntactic head' of a noun phrase that specifies a purpose, injunction or request, such as in John 6:39,40 and 1 John 3:11. In these cases it is clear that the demonstrative refers to the "ινα" clause that follows immediately after. Likewise in John 6:29. It does not make a difference that there are other instances of "ουτος" which point backward. It is straightforwardly saying that after Jesus said "Do not work for the food that perishes but ...", implying that they were not doing what God actually wanted, they asked "What may we do so that we may work the work of God?" and he answered "This is the work of God: that you are to entrust yourselves to him whom [God himself] sent forth.", or paraphrased, "Just do this: entrust yourselves to the son of man.".

In any case, I've listed a whole lot of other examples from other separate writings that show that indeed "ουτος" is sometimes used to point forward. Based on that, I think it is quite clear that the above instances are of the same kind, and based on other instances John indeed likes to write like that.
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