Romans 6:21 agreement

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ronsnider1
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Romans 6:21 agreement

Post by ronsnider1 » January 28th, 2015, 1:39 pm

The pertinent text: τίνα οὖν καρπὸν εἴχετε τότε ἐφ' οἷς νῦν ἐπαισχύνεσθε; τὸ γὰρ τέλος ἐκείνων θάνατος.

My questions have to do with the matter of grammatical agreement, which appears to begin with the noun καρπὸν (fruit, outcome, result, produce) which looks to be explained by the prepositional phrase ἐφ' οἷς (which I believe is only used here). I would naturally be inclined to see the term fruit expanded by the "on the bases of which things" that might include both the actions under the old master (the sin nature) and the embarrassing results of those actions (fruit). However, later in the verse, the remote demonstrative ἐκείνων is used, which brings up another issue. My version of Bibleworks parses the relative as a neuter and the demonstrative as a masculine (suggesting perhaps people are in view), but the form for those is the same in the masculine and neuter gender.

I know there is a question as to where to place the question mark in the sentence, but I am more concerned about antecedants and to what exactly these terms refer.

Any insight is appreciated.

Ron Snider
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Ron Snider
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Makarios Bible Church of Sarasota

Stephen Hughes
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Re: Romans 6:21 agreement

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 28th, 2015, 9:45 pm

δοῦλοι ... τῆς ἁμαρτίας is further off before ἐλεύθεροι ... τῇ δικαιοσύνῃ, that is to say that it was our slavery to sin δοῦλοι ... τῆς ἁμαρτίας (rather than in our potential freedom) that resulted in death Τὸ γὰρ τέλος ἐκείνων θάνατος. i.e. Τὸ γὰρ τέλος {ὑμῶν τῶν δούλων ... τῆς ἁμαρτίας} θάνατος {ἦν}. It is said in contradistiction to τὸ δὲ τέλος {ὑμῶν ἐλευθερωθέντων ἀπὸ τῆς ἁμαρτίας τε καὶ δουλωθέντων τῷ θεῷ} ζωὴν αἰώνιόν {ἐστιν}.

καρπὸν is speaking in figurative language of the results of being δοῦλοι ... τῆς ἁμαρτίας, while ἐφ' οἷς is speaking of those results in plain language prompting us to imagine them severally (cf. the various lists of which sinful acts found throughout Paul's writings).
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Romans 6:21 agreement

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 29th, 2015, 7:02 am

Or you could simply say that Paul understands καρπός here as a collective, the various behaviors which cause one to be ashamed. Logos parses ἐκείνων as neuter plural. When used by itself the word usually refers to that which immediately precedes, and this is the way I've always read it here. When used in distinction with οὗτος it generally refers to what would be farther back on the page, but there is no such usage here.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Romans 6:21 agreement

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 29th, 2015, 1:29 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Logos parses ἐκείνων as neuter plural. When used by itself the word usually refers to that which immediately precedes, and this is the way I've always read it here.
Taken as neuter plural, I would understand it that way too. I take this as ἐκεῖνα pointing (δείκνυμι) here for emphasis, rather than ἐκεῖνοι pointing (ἐκτείνας δείκνυμι) at somewhere distant - but still pointing none the less.

The commentaries on the verse and all the English translations I can check also take ἐκείνων as neuter plural. That makes my previous understanding grammatically possible, but highly improbable.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Romans 6:21 agreement

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 29th, 2015, 2:18 pm

-ων of course is panclitic, but context makes the difference... :ugeek:
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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