I think that the correct form of the question for that phrase would be διά τι σεσῳσμένοι ἐσμέν; which is the neuter form.cwconrad wrote:I know that the view that τοῦτο refers back to πίστις is held by many, but I would agree with Barry that, if it were, we might better expect a feminine demonstrative. I've also seen the explanation that τοῦτο refers forward to δῶρον, but I don't find that satisfactory either. I prefer to understand τοῦτο as referring to the entire clause, ]τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως: "... and that (the fact that you have been saved by grace by means of faith) (is) not your doing; it's God's gift; it's not a result of works ... "
Rom. 12:3-8 Equivalencies
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: Rom. 12:3-8 Equivalencies
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Re: Rom. 12:3-8 Equivalencies
cwconrad wrote:But we don't want to say that πίστις is a χάρισμα, do we?
Stephen Hughes wrote:[Well, checking that has raised an interesting point.I had always assumed the "that" in English referred to "faith". What do you take the τοῦτο (θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον) as referring to?Ephesians 2:8, 9 wrote:τῇ γὰρ χάριτί ἐστε σεσῳσμένοι διὰ τῆς πίστεως, καὶ τοῦτο οὐκ ἐξ ὑμῶν· θεοῦ τὸ δῶρον· 9 οὐκ ἐξ ἔργων, ἵνα μή τις καυχήσηται.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:A specific reference to faith would require αὕτη. τοῦτο most likely refers to the entire preceding clause.
I really don't mean to be nit-picking (he says, as he does it!), but I rather think that "knowing a modest amount of Greek" may seriously imperil understanding -- that's one conclusion I've drawn from listening to preachers who want to explain to the congregation, "what the Greek word used here really means." Yes, knowing a modest amount of Greek can improve understanding, but often enough it can mislead. Not many of us have the facility with expression of him who claimed to know "little Latin and less Greek."Stephen Hughes wrote: 嗯, this seems to be one of those places where knowing even a modest amount of Greek can actually improve understanding.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Re: nitpicking: the ἀγών continues ...
I have been admonished (nay, reminded) by a nit-picker better than myself that Shakespeare did not himself claim that knowledge, and that the phrasing of the assertion was originally, "small Latin and less Greek."cwconrad wrote:I really don't mean to be nit-picking (he says, as he does it!), but I rather think that "knowing a modest amount of Greek" may seriously imperil understanding -- that's one conclusion I've drawn from listening to preachers who want to explain to the congregation, "what the Greek word used here really means." Yes, knowing a modest amount of Greek can improve understanding, but often enough it can mislead. Not many of us have the facility with expression of him who claimed to know "little Latin and less Greek."
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Rom. 12:3-8 Equivalencies
This may be another place where ἐν is used in lists to summarise the context spelt out in the first instance. There are some other such lists in 2 Corinthians, but this seems to be the most extensive one.2 Corinthians 6:4-7 wrote:ἀλλ’ ἐν παντὶ συνιστῶντες ἑαυτοὺς ὡς θεοῦ διάκονοι, ἐν ὑπομονῇ πολλῇ, ἐν θλίψεσιν, ἐν ἀνάγκαις, ἐν στενοχωρίαις, 5 ἐν πληγαῖς, ἐν φυλακαῖς, ἐν ἀκαταστασίαις, ἐν κόποις, ἐν ἀγρυπνίαις, ἐν νηστείαις, 6 ἐν ἁγνότητι, ἐν γνώσει, ἐν μακροθυμίᾳ, ἐν χρηστότητι, ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ, ἐν ἀγάπῃ ἀνυποκρίτῳ, 7 ἐν λόγῳ ἀληθείας, ἐν δυνάμει θεοῦ, διὰ τῶν ὅπλων τῆς δικαιοσύνης τῶν δεξιῶν καὶ ἀριστερῶν,
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)