Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

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cwconrad
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by cwconrad »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:What's the Greek for "misplaced modifier?" :o
ἀτύχημα συντακτικόν? Or perhaps better, in consideration of the text under discussion, ἀτύχημα ἄτοπον.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:1) If there weren't theological considerations of some importance to people I don't think that any one would take ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου with γέγραπται. It's just too far separated.
Well, perhaps also, if there weren't other theological considerations, I'd say that the relative which heads this phrase is most naturally to be taken with the ὁ δράκων or τὸ θηρίον further back up in the chapter and referred to in the first part of this verse as αὐτὸν.
Revelations 13:8 wrote:καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.
If that were the case, then the continuing story of ὁ δράκων or τὸ θηρίον - I can't really follow the referents of the pronouns so well - would suggest that the singular relative and possessive actually were meant to refer to a singular entity. In that reading of the relative, because there is a continuity of the narrative and the lamb is just mentioned in regards to the book, the distance from γέγραπται to ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου would not be too significant.
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grogers
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by grogers »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Just a few additional comments on a fine discussion:

1) If there weren't theological considerations of some importance to people I don't think that any one would take ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου with γέγραπται. It's just too far separated.

2) Having said that, the Greek of Revelation is not exactly normal Greek, and we should always be a little extra careful in drawing conclusions based on our broader understanding of the language. The author patently did not have an ammanuensis to correct his style when writing. What's the Greek for "misplaced modifier?" :o

3) Yes, there is a parallel passage, but that doesn't mean that the author intends to say the same thing in that passage.
Gentlemen, I very much appreciate the comments everyone has offered. Everyone has been most helpful and professional. Personally, I try very hard to approach the reading of any biblical text with the intent of allowing the grammatical structure of that text to formulate my theology. I try never to allow any particular theological position to influence my reading of any text. I am certainly not perfect in this but many years of practice in this exorcize has allowed me to discipline myself more and more to this end. This is why it is so critically important for me to properly understand the grammar. As to this particular text I am not attempting to defend any one particular theological position, I simply want to know what the grammar shows. Clearly, this is one of those times where the construction is unclear and cannot be determined by any rule of grammar. Again gentlemen, thank you very much for your comments.
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Just a few additional comments on a fine discussion:

1) If there weren't theological considerations of some importance to people I don't think that any one would take ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου with γέγραπται. It's just too far separated.

2) Having said that, the Greek of Revelation is not exactly normal Greek, and we should always be a little extra careful in drawing conclusions based on our broader understanding of the language. The author patently did not have an ammanuensis to correct his style when writing. What's the Greek for "misplaced modifier?" :o

3) Yes, there is a parallel passage, but that doesn't mean that the author intends to say the same thing in that passage.
For me, this comment brings a helpful focus for my understanding of both the textual and the extra textual-issues.
Revelation 13:8 / 17:8 wrote: vs 13:8 καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, οὗ οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.

vs 17:8… καὶ θαυμασθήσονται οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐπὶ τὸ βιβλίον τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, βλεπόντων τὸ θηρίον …
The strongest argument for γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ … ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, as I see it, is the parallel with verse 17:8, and the strongest argument for ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου is the grammatical structure of verse 13:8. Regarding the parallel with 17:8, while it indeed is a strong argument, I do also agree with Barry's note - one should not assume that means the author did not intend to expand the concept, and especially an author like this one.

How one decides between these two is governed, not only by one’s theology, but also by how one views the characteristic language of both the genre and the author. The aversion to ἐσφαγμένου as the referent in v. 13:8 is clearly a time issue for many, whereas commentators like Beale view the phrase as one cloaked in the language of ‘prophetic time’. It is pretty difficult to speak about the local meaning of a word or a structure without taking this influence into account.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by Jonathan Robie »

grogers wrote:Clearly, this is one of those times where the construction is unclear and cannot be determined by any rule of grammar.
True, but that won't stop us from trying ... perhaps at length ;->

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grogers
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by grogers »

Jonathan Robie wrote:
grogers wrote:Clearly, this is one of those times where the construction is unclear and cannot be determined by any rule of grammar.
True, but that won't stop us from trying ... perhaps at length ;->

(See the text in my signature.)
That is very fitting. I like that.
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

grogers wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
grogers wrote:Clearly, this is one of those times where the construction is unclear and cannot be determined by any rule of grammar.
True, but that won't stop us from trying ... perhaps at length ;->

(See the text in my signature.)
That is very fitting. I like that.
Besides, where else will you be able to find such rare treasures to tuck away in your armamentarium of speciality Greek phrases as the following:
cwconrad wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:What's the Greek for "misplaced modifier?" :o
ἀτύχημα συντακτικόν? Or perhaps better, in consideration of the text under discussion, ἀτύχημα ἄτοπον.
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon »

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:The strongest argument for γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ … ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, as I see it, is the parallel with verse 17:8, and the strongest argument for ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου is the grammatical structure of verse 13:8.
Well stated.

I'm wondering, though (with no intention of steering the discussion to the out-of-bounds arena of textual criticism), if the anomalous syntax of Revelation 13:8 as it stands in its redacted form could be explained by speculation on the history of this text. I think it's possible, especially in light of 17:8, to understand the 'original' reading of 13:8 to be οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, augmented to οὗ οὐ γέγραπται... εν τω βιβλιω της ζωης του αρνιου in parallel to 21:27, then further amplified to ...τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου in parallel to 5:12. If this reconstruction is viable, it would provide an explanation for ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to modify γέγραπται despite the extensive intervening material and the proximity (in the final redaction) of ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to ἐσφαγμένου.
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I'm wondering, though (with no intention of steering the discussion to the out-of-bounds arena of textual criticism), if the anomalous syntax of Revelation 13:8 as it stands in its redacted form could be explained by speculation on the history of this text. I think it's possible, especially in light of 17:8, to understand the 'original' reading of 13:8 to be οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, augmented to οὗ οὐ γέγραπται... εν τω βιβλιω της ζωης του αρνιου in parallel to 21:27, then further amplified to ...τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου in parallel to 5:12. If this reconstruction is viable, it would provide an explanation for ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to modify γέγραπται despite the extensive intervening material and the proximity (in the final redaction) of ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to ἐσφαγμένου.
I think I will have to let smarter people than me go there. My own confidence is confined to the text we've received, and whatever bona bide documents can be shown to have contributed the actual transmission.
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cwconrad
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Re: Rev 13:8 ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου

Post by cwconrad »

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I'm wondering, though (with no intention of steering the discussion to the out-of-bounds arena of textual criticism), if the anomalous syntax of Revelation 13:8 as it stands in its redacted form could be explained by speculation on the history of this text. I think it's possible, especially in light of 17:8, to understand the 'original' reading of 13:8 to be οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, augmented to οὗ οὐ γέγραπται... εν τω βιβλιω της ζωης του αρνιου in parallel to 21:27, then further amplified to ...τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου in parallel to 5:12. If this reconstruction is viable, it would provide an explanation for ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to modify γέγραπται despite the extensive intervening material and the proximity (in the final redaction) of ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου to ἐσφαγμένου.
I think I will have to let smarter people than me go there. My own confidence is confined to the text we've received, and whatever bona bide documents can be shown to have contributed the actual transmission.
Well, it does look a bit like a petitio principii -- the tentative conclusion being based upon a hypothesis that can't be tested.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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