Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
HI all,
Working through Galatians and bumped into the verse that Historical Jesus scholars fight over.
Gal 1:18-19
18 Ἔπειτα μετὰ ἔτη τρία ἀνῆλθον εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἱστορῆσαι Κηφᾶν καὶ ἐπέμεινα πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡμέρας δεκαπέντε,
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου.
My question is about verse 19. Commentators seem to disagree over how the εἰ μὴ works. At least thats the grammatical point that seems to underlie there arguments. Some think it best to take εἰ μὴ with the whole phrase ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον, giving the sense
'i did not see another of the apostles except James [who is an apostle] the brother of the lord.'
Others seem to take εἰ μὴ only in relation to the action of the verb, giving the sense
'i did not see another of the apostles, except James [who is not an apostle but] the brother of the lord.'
At least thats what it looks like is going on.
As far as i can see it makes very little sense to have εἰ μὴ in a sentence where the exception does not belong to the category in question. It would be like saying 'while i was in town I saw no other cars except the bicycle.' or 'i love all people, except cats.' It doesn't make sense. If I'm missing something obvious could someone help me out here?
Working through Galatians and bumped into the verse that Historical Jesus scholars fight over.
Gal 1:18-19
18 Ἔπειτα μετὰ ἔτη τρία ἀνῆλθον εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἱστορῆσαι Κηφᾶν καὶ ἐπέμεινα πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡμέρας δεκαπέντε,
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου.
My question is about verse 19. Commentators seem to disagree over how the εἰ μὴ works. At least thats the grammatical point that seems to underlie there arguments. Some think it best to take εἰ μὴ with the whole phrase ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον, giving the sense
'i did not see another of the apostles except James [who is an apostle] the brother of the lord.'
Others seem to take εἰ μὴ only in relation to the action of the verb, giving the sense
'i did not see another of the apostles, except James [who is not an apostle but] the brother of the lord.'
At least thats what it looks like is going on.
As far as i can see it makes very little sense to have εἰ μὴ in a sentence where the exception does not belong to the category in question. It would be like saying 'while i was in town I saw no other cars except the bicycle.' or 'i love all people, except cats.' It doesn't make sense. If I'm missing something obvious could someone help me out here?
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Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:
επ αληθειας δε λεγω υμιν πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν ταις ημεραις ηλιου εν τω ισραηλ οτε εκλεισθη ο ουρανος επι ετη τρια και μηνας εξ ως εγενετο λιμος μεγας επι πασαν την γην και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν και πολλοι λεπροι ησαν επι ελισσαιου του προφητου εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
επ αληθειας δε λεγω υμιν πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν ταις ημεραις ηλιου εν τω ισραηλ οτε εκλεισθη ο ουρανος επι ετη τρια και μηνας εξ ως εγενετο λιμος μεγας επι πασαν την γην και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν και πολλοι λεπροι ησαν επι ελισσαιου του προφητου εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
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Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)
(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)
I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:
πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν
πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
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Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)
ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:
πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν
πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)
But ISTM that ουδεμιαν αυτων refers to χηραι εν τω ισραηλ and ει μη is "exception" to that, so it's not actually an exception to χηραι εν τω ισραηλ. The sentence would most naturally mean "he visited none of them, but only..." In Greek I just can't make sense of it in the way you propose.Stirling Bartholomew wrote: ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.
Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)
To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... ": (a) not to any widow in Israel but rather to a widow in Sidon; (b) not to any leper in Israel but rather to a leper in Syria.Stirling Bartholomew wrote:ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:
πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν
πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
My discussion with Runge is here. I used LXX and http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/ (the blog page shows quotations from ESV translation). I'm not sure of everything; the issue needs more thinking. What looks clear to me is that ει μη doesn't always mean "except".
I don't see why it must mean that. "But only" would be good. "But rather" doesn't work in all other places where "but only" works (see the link above). And just to make clear: by using English gloss I'm trying to catch the original meaning of Greek, not arguing for a specific translation. I suppose others do that, too. "But rather" or "instead" may work as a translation but in meaning it's more specific (in this context) than "but only" and could therefore be more a contextual application than the basic meaning.cwconrad wrote:To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... "
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Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
One solution, Paul's use τῶν ἀποστόλων is not restricted τοῖς δώδεκα, as in another passage people like to fight over:Daniel Watts wrote:HI all,
Working through Galatians and bumped into the verse that Historical Jesus scholars fight over.
Gal 1:18-19
18 Ἔπειτα μετὰ ἔτη τρία ἀνῆλθον εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἱστορῆσαι Κηφᾶν καὶ ἐπέμεινα πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡμέρας δεκαπέντε,
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου.
{snip} ...
As far as i can see it makes very little sense to have εἰ μὴ in a sentence where the exception does not belong to the category in question. It would be like saying 'while i was in town I saw no other cars except the bicycle.' or 'i love all people, except cats.' It doesn't make sense. If I'm missing something obvious could someone help me out here?
Rom. 16:7 ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.
On the other hand, I think you are probably unnecessarily restricting the function of εἰ μὴ as Carl has pointed out.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
Sorry, Eeli, I didn't mean for that gloss "but rather" to extend beyond the verses in question, Lk 4:25-27. I don’t think in terms of phrasing that fits all instances, and I certainly wasn’t thinking about that passage in Gal 2:15-16.Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:My discussion with Runge is here. I used LXX and http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/ (the blog page shows quotations from ESV translation). I'm not sure of everything; the issue needs more thinking. What looks clear to me is that ει μη doesn't always mean "except".
I don't see why it must mean that. "But only" would be good. "But rather" doesn't work in all other places where "but only" works (see the link above). And just to make clear: by using English gloss I'm trying to catch the original meaning of Greek, not arguing for a specific translation. I suppose others do that, too. "But rather" or "instead" may work as a translation but in meaning it's more specific (in this context) than "but only" and could therefore be more a contextual application than the basic meaning.cwconrad wrote:To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... "
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)
Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
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Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?
RE: εἰ μὴ = ἀλλὰ
A.T. Robertson p. 1025: εἰ μὴ may make exception to preceding negative as in Gal. 1:19 … the effect here is to make εἰ μὴ seem adversative instead of exceptive.
G. Cooper “εἰ μὴ is sometimes the virtual equivalent of ἀλλὰ but.” [1]
Cooper's samples are not particularly straight forward and probably do not shed any light on Gal. 1:19. I will give only one of them.
A.T. Robertson p. 1025: εἰ μὴ may make exception to preceding negative as in Gal. 1:19 … the effect here is to make εἰ μὴ seem adversative instead of exceptive.
G. Cooper “εἰ μὴ is sometimes the virtual equivalent of ἀλλὰ but.” [1]
Cooper's samples are not particularly straight forward and probably do not shed any light on Gal. 1:19. I will give only one of them.
[1] Guy Cooper, Attic Syntax v2, pp. 1056-57, §65.5.11.BARISTOPHANES, Women at the Thesmophoria
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