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Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 21st, 2015, 8:56 pm
by Daniel Watts
HI all,

Working through Galatians and bumped into the verse that Historical Jesus scholars fight over.

Gal 1:18-19
18 Ἔπειτα μετὰ ἔτη τρία ἀνῆλθον εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἱστορῆσαι Κηφᾶν καὶ ἐπέμεινα πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡμέρας δεκαπέντε,
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου.

My question is about verse 19. Commentators seem to disagree over how the εἰ μὴ works. At least thats the grammatical point that seems to underlie there arguments. Some think it best to take εἰ μὴ with the whole phrase ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον, giving the sense

'i did not see another of the apostles except James [who is an apostle] the brother of the lord.'

Others seem to take εἰ μὴ only in relation to the action of the verb, giving the sense

'i did not see another of the apostles, except James [who is not an apostle but] the brother of the lord.'

At least thats what it looks like is going on.

As far as i can see it makes very little sense to have εἰ μὴ in a sentence where the exception does not belong to the category in question. It would be like saying 'while i was in town I saw no other cars except the bicycle.' or 'i love all people, except cats.' It doesn't make sense. If I'm missing something obvious could someone help me out here?

Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 3:12 am
by timothy_p_mcmahon
I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:

επ αληθειας δε λεγω υμιν πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν ταις ημεραις ηλιου εν τω ισραηλ οτε εκλεισθη ο ουρανος επι ετη τρια και μηνας εξ ως εγενετο λιμος μεγας επι πασαν την γην και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν και πολλοι λεπροι ησαν επι ελισσαιου του προφητου εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος

Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 5:53 am
by Eeli Kaikkonen
(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:

πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν

πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.

Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 12:32 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:

πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν

πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.
ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.

Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 1:30 pm
by Eeli Kaikkonen
Stirling Bartholomew wrote: ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.
But ISTM that ουδεμιαν αυτων refers to χηραι εν τω ισραηλ and ει μη is "exception" to that, so it's not actually an exception to χηραι εν τω ισραηλ. The sentence would most naturally mean "he visited none of them, but only..." In Greek I just can't make sense of it in the way you propose.

Re: Meaning of ει μη (Re: James an apostolos?)

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 1:31 pm
by cwconrad
Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:(Quote from Luke 4 shortened)
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:I believe Luke 4:25-27 uses εἰ μὴ in the sense that doesn't make sense to you:

πολλαι χηραι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και προς ουδεμιαν αυτων επεμφθη ηλιας ει μη εις σαρεπτα της σιδωνος προς γυναικα χηραν

πολλοι λεπροι ησαν εν τω ισραηλ και ουδεις αυτων εκαθαρισθη ει μη νεεμαν ο συρος
I tried to argue with Steve Runge over the meaning of ει μη. I still think that it means "only" or "but only" whenever the "exception" doesn't belong to the group mentioned. It seems to be so in the quoted passage of Luke. Basically this could be applicable to Gal 1:19. But still I feel D. Watts is correct. I don't know why.
ISTM that the category is χηραι not χηραι εν τω ισραηλ.
To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... ": (a) not to any widow in Israel but rather to a widow in Sidon; (b) not to any leper in Israel but rather to a leper in Syria.

Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 3:10 pm
by Eeli Kaikkonen
My discussion with Runge is here. I used LXX and http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/ (the blog page shows quotations from ESV translation). I'm not sure of everything; the issue needs more thinking. What looks clear to me is that ει μη doesn't always mean "except".
cwconrad wrote:To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... "
I don't see why it must mean that. "But only" would be good. "But rather" doesn't work in all other places where "but only" works (see the link above). And just to make clear: by using English gloss I'm trying to catch the original meaning of Greek, not arguing for a specific translation. I suppose others do that, too. "But rather" or "instead" may work as a translation but in meaning it's more specific (in this context) than "but only" and could therefore be more a contextual application than the basic meaning.

Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 3:50 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
Daniel Watts wrote:HI all,

Working through Galatians and bumped into the verse that Historical Jesus scholars fight over.

Gal 1:18-19
18 Ἔπειτα μετὰ ἔτη τρία ἀνῆλθον εἰς Ἱεροσόλυμα ἱστορῆσαι Κηφᾶν καὶ ἐπέμεινα πρὸς αὐτὸν ἡμέρας δεκαπέντε,
19 ἕτερον δὲ τῶν ἀποστόλων οὐκ εἶδον εἰ μὴ Ἰάκωβον τὸν ἀδελφὸν τοῦ κυρίου.
{snip} ...


As far as i can see it makes very little sense to have εἰ μὴ in a sentence where the exception does not belong to the category in question. It would be like saying 'while i was in town I saw no other cars except the bicycle.' or 'i love all people, except cats.' It doesn't make sense. If I'm missing something obvious could someone help me out here?
One solution, Paul's use τῶν ἀποστόλων is not restricted τοῖς δώδεκα, as in another passage people like to fight over:

Rom. 16:7 ἀσπάσασθε Ἀνδρόνικον καὶ Ἰουνιᾶν τοὺς συγγενεῖς μου καὶ συναιχμαλώτους μου, οἵτινές εἰσιν ἐπίσημοι ἐν τοῖς ἀποστόλοις, οἳ καὶ πρὸ ἐμοῦ γέγοναν ἐν Χριστῷ.

On the other hand, I think you are probably unnecessarily restricting the function of εἰ μὴ as Carl has pointed out.

Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 4:34 pm
by cwconrad
Eeli Kaikkonen wrote:My discussion with Runge is here. I used LXX and http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/nets/edition/ (the blog page shows quotations from ESV translation). I'm not sure of everything; the issue needs more thinking. What looks clear to me is that ει μη doesn't always mean "except".
cwconrad wrote:To clarify, εἰ μὴ in these verses must mean "but rather ... "
I don't see why it must mean that. "But only" would be good. "But rather" doesn't work in all other places where "but only" works (see the link above). And just to make clear: by using English gloss I'm trying to catch the original meaning of Greek, not arguing for a specific translation. I suppose others do that, too. "But rather" or "instead" may work as a translation but in meaning it's more specific (in this context) than "but only" and could therefore be more a contextual application than the basic meaning.
Sorry, Eeli, I didn't mean for that gloss "but rather" to extend beyond the verses in question, Lk 4:25-27. I don’t think in terms of phrasing that fits all instances, and I certainly wasn’t thinking about that passage in Gal 2:15-16.

Re: Gal 1:19 James an apostolos?

Posted: June 22nd, 2015, 8:32 pm
by Stirling Bartholomew
RE: εἰ μὴ = ἀλλὰ

A.T. Robertson p. 1025: εἰ μὴ may make exception to preceding negative as in Gal. 1:19 … the effect here is to make εἰ μὴ seem adversative instead of exceptive.

G. Cooper “εἰ μὴ is sometimes the virtual equivalent of ἀλλὰ but.” [1]

Cooper's samples are not particularly straight forward and probably do not shed any light on Gal. 1:19. I will give only one of them.
ARISTOPHANES, Women at the Thesmophoria
LCL 2000

lines 897-898
ΚΗΔΕΣΤΗΣ
αὕτη Θεονόη Πρωτέως.

ΚΡΙΤΥΛΛΑ
μὰ τὼ θεώ,
εἰ μὴ Κρίτυλλά γ᾿ Ἀντιθέου Γαργηττόθεν.
σὺ δ᾿ εἶ πανοῦργος.

Kinsman

’Tis Proteus’ daughter, Theonoe.

Critylla

No, by the Twain Goddesses,
I’m Critylla, daughter of Antitheus, from Gargettos!
And you’re a criminal!
[1] Guy Cooper, Attic Syntax v2, pp. 1056-57, §65.5.11.B