Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

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Jonathan Robie
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Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Luke 10:39 wrote:καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ
τῇδε occurs only once in the GNT, here in the phrase τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ "to her there was a sister" = "she had a sister". τάδε occurs twice in Acts, 7 times in the Revelation, τήνδε once in James, for a total of 11 occurrences in the GNT.

It seems to be much more common in Septuagint Greek, and this usage is similar to sentences like these, especially the first two:

Gn 25:24 καὶ ἐπληρώθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ τεκεῖν αὐτήν καὶ τῇδε ἦν δίδυμα ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ αὐτῆς
Gn 38:27 ἐγένετο δὲ ἡνίκα ἔτικτεν καὶ τῇδε ἦν δίδυμα ἐν τῇ γαστρὶ αὐτῆς
2Mc 6:12 παρακαλῶ οὖν τοὺς ἐντυγχάνοντας τῇδε τῇ βίβλῳ μὴ συστέλλεσθαι διὰ τὰς συμφοράς λογίζεσθαι δὲ τὰς τιμωρίας μὴ πρὸς ὄλεθρον ἀλλὰ πρὸς παιδείαν τοῦ γένους ἡμῶν εἶναι

I found a lot of occurrences of τῇδε in classical sources, but found τῇδε ἦν only in Josephus (I don't have TLG, so this is not an exhaustive search):
Flavius Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18 section 38 wrote:γῆς ἐπιδόσει, εἰδὼς παράνομον τὸν οἰκισμὸν ὄντα καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰουδαίοις πατρίου διὰ τὸ ἐπὶ μνήμασιν, ἃ πολλὰ τῇδε ἦν, ἀνῃρημένοις τὴν ἵδρυσιν τῇ Τιβεριάδι γενέσθαι· μιαροὺς δὲ ἐπὶ ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας εἶναι τοὺς οἰκήτορας ἀγορεύει ἡμῖν
What kind of Greek is τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ? Is it fair to say this is a usage influenced by the Septuagint?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Stephen Carlson »

τῇδε and its paradigm buddies are good Classical Greek. It is used, e.g., in Herodotus.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Jonathan Robie wrote:I found a lot of occurrences of τῇδε in classical sources, but found τῇδε ἦν only in Josephus (I don't have TLG, so this is not an exhaustive search):
Flavius Josephus. Antiquities of the Jews, Book 18 section 38 wrote:γῆς ἐπιδόσει, εἰδὼς παράνομον τὸν οἰκισμὸν ὄντα καὶ ἀπὸ τοῦ Ἰουδαίοις πατρίου διὰ τὸ ἐπὶ μνήμασιν, ἃ πολλὰ τῇδε ἦν, ἀνῃρημένοις τὴν ἵδρυσιν τῇ Τιβεριάδι γενέσθαι· μιαροὺς δὲ ἐπὶ ἑπτὰ ἡμέρας εἶναι τοὺς οἰκήτορας ἀγορεύει ἡμῖν
What kind of Greek is τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ? Is it fair to say this is a usage influenced by the Septuagint?
Stephen Carlson wrote:τῇδε and its paradigm buddies are good Classical Greek. It is used, e.g., in Herodotus.
I found a τῇδε quite a few times in Classical Greek, as the above link shows, but I "found τῇδε ἦν only in Josephus". I didn't find τῇδε ἦν in Herodotus either - am I missing something?
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Jonathan Robie wrote: I didn't find τῇδε ἦν in Herodotus either - am I missing something?
Herodotus
Book 1, section 117, line 17
Παραδίδωμι μέντοι τῷδε κατὰ τάδε,
ἐντειλάμενος θεῖναί μιν ἐς ἔρημον ὄρος καὶ παραμένοντα
φυλάσσειν ἄχρι οὗ τελευτήσῃ, ἀπειλήσας παντοῖα τῷδε ἢν
μὴ τάδε ἐπιτελέα ποιήσῃ.

But I gave the child with the charge that the cowherd should lay it on a desolate mountainside, and wait there and watch till it be dead; and I threatened him with all punishments if he did not accomplish this.

LCL 1920
one little problem, ἢν is not ἦν in Herodotus.

The LXX examples τῇδε renders הנה but they are not the same idiom according to E.Tov and J. Wevers. E. Tov tags ἦν in Gen. 25:24 as an LXX plus but not in Gen. 38.27. This a little over my head so I will not attempt to explain it.

Gen. 25:24 καὶ ἐπληρώθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τοῦ τεκεῖν αὐτήν, καὶ τῇδε ἦν δίδυμα ἐν τῇ κοιλίᾳ αὐτῆς.

Gen. 38:27 Ἐγένετο δὲ ἡνίκα ἔτικτεν, καὶ τῇδε ἦν δίδυμα ἐν τῇ γαστρὶ αὐτῆς.
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Jonathan Robie wrote:I found a τῇδε quite a few times in Classical Greek, as the above link shows, but I "found τῇδε ἦν only in Josephus". I didn't find τῇδε ἦν in Herodotus either - am I missing something?
I didn't realize you were focusing on the exact phrase. The phrase itself is just a dative of possession, and τῇδε is just a dative demonstrative pronoun (though one that is probably already old-fashioned in Koine). I don't see any reason to make this particular combination any more special than any other dative of possession with any other pronoun.
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Carlson wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:I found a τῇδε quite a few times in Classical Greek, as the above link shows, but I "found τῇδε ἦν only in Josephus". I didn't find τῇδε ἦν in Herodotus either - am I missing something?
I didn't realize you were focusing on the exact phrase. The phrase itself is just a dative of possession, and τῇδε is just a dative demonstrative pronoun (though one that is probably already old-fashioned in Koine). I don't see any reason to make this particular combination any more special than any other dative of possession with any other pronoun.
"Probably old fashioned" may be the term I'm looking for ...
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Stirling Bartholomew »

Jonathan,
here in the phrase τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ "to her there was a sister" = "she had a sister".
If we replace the infrequently used demonstrative ὅδε with a personal pronoun then we find the idiom cropping up.

Rev. 21:7 ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

Luke 9:38 καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου ἐβόησεν λέγων· διδάσκαλε, δέομαί σου ἐπιβλέψαι ἐπὶ τὸν υἱόν μου, ὅτι μονογενής μοί ἐστιν,
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Luke 10:39 καὶ τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ καλουμένη Μαριάμ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
here in the phrase τῇδε ἦν ἀδελφὴ "to her there was a sister" = "she had a sister".
If we replace the infrequently used demonstrative ὅδε with a personal pronoun then we find the idiom cropping up.

Rev. 21:7 ὁ νικῶν κληρονομήσει ταῦτα καὶ ἔσομαι αὐτῷ θεὸς καὶ αὐτὸς ἔσται μοι υἱός.

Luke 9:38 καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ ἀπὸ τοῦ ὄχλου ἐβόησεν λέγων· διδάσκαλε, δέομαί σου ἐπιβλέψαι ἐπὶ τὸν υἱόν μου, ὅτι μονογενής μοί ἐστιν,
Thanks, that's helpful.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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