Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

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Jean-Michel Colin
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Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Jean-Michel Colin » October 31st, 2015, 2:22 pm

Mark 14:4 wrote:ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν;
My question is : should we understand the second part of the sentence as direct or indirect style ?
How is this indignation expressed by the text ? Is it spoken within those who are here ? Or is it unspoken, each of those who are here feeling this indignation in himself ?

Where I come from is this :
- the woman doesn't speak any word
- Jesus speaks with words having authority
- on which "side" are those who are indignated ?
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Jonathan Robie » October 31st, 2015, 6:41 pm

Jean-Michel Colin wrote:
Mark 14:4 wrote:ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν;
My question is : should we understand the second part of the sentence as direct or indirect style ?
I read this as an indirect question. In ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς, the phrase ἦσαν ἀγανακτοῦντες is a periphrastic imperfect, they were "indignant-ing" to each other. The second half of the sentence tells us what they were actually saying while they were doing that: Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν;
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jean-Michel Colin
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Jean-Michel Colin » November 1st, 2015, 3:40 am

Jonathan Robie wrote: I read this as an indirect question. In ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς, the phrase ἦσαν ἀγανακτοῦντες is a periphrastic imperfect, they were "indignant-ing" to each other. The second half of the sentence tells us what they were actually saying while they were doing that: Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν;
OK, this clarifies things.
I see the narrative giving them (the τινες) an intermediate position :
- you cannot hear the woman : she doesn't speak a word
- you can hear something of what the "τινες" say : indirect style, so you cannot hear directly their words, probably for the reason that they say more than simply "Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν" - they have an (indignanting) discussion, from which the direct words can not be transcripted. Their meaning is perfectly clear though.
- you hear very clearly Jesus's words, emerging from the restlessness of the "τινες", and rejoining the silence of the woman.

Just to know a little bit more : indirect question, so introduced : how ? by Εἰς ?
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 1st, 2015, 8:45 am

Jean-Michel Colin wrote:Just to know a little bit more : indirect question, so introduced : how ? by Εἰς ?
Sort of. By Εἰς τί, which together means "why". They are obviously asking a question, which begins with Εἰς τί.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 1st, 2015, 8:50 am

The editors of both the UBS and SBL texts see this as a direct quote, since they capitalized εἱς. The context indicates to me that either they spoke this loud enough for Jesus to hear, or their manner was such that Jesus figured it out (and Mark for literary purposes represents the question as spoken). If it were an indirect question (which, technically, it could be apart from the context) then τι would be the word introducing the indirect question.
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by cwconrad » November 1st, 2015, 9:57 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:The editors of both the UBS and SBL texts see this as a direct quote, since they capitalized εἱς. The context indicates to me that either they spoke this loud enough for Jesus to hear, or their manner was such that Jesus figured it out (and Mark for literary purposes represents the question as spoken). If it were an indirect question (which, technically, it could be apart from the context) then τι would be the word introducing the indirect question.
Mk 14:4 wrote:ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν;
I'd have to agree with Barry: it's clear that the editors have understood this as an indirect question; what's not clear is whether the original composer considered the question as one which the ἀγανακτοῦντες spoken openly or whether it's the question Jesus discerned in their expressions. Quotation marks are a modern invention; the only key to interrogative clauses in the ancient Greek text is interrogative words at the outset of a clause.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 2nd, 2015, 3:08 pm

cwconrad wrote: ... what's not clear is whether the original composer considered the question as one which the ἀγανακτοῦντες spoken openly or whether it's the question Jesus discerned in their expressions.
Mark 14:3 Καὶ ὄντος αὐτοῦ ἐν Βηθανίᾳ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ Σίμωνος τοῦ λεπροῦ, κατακειμένου αὐτοῦ ἦλθεν γυνὴ ἔχουσα ἀλάβαστρον μύρου νάρδου πιστικῆς πολυτελοῦς, συντρίψασα τὴν ἀλάβαστρον κατέχεεν αὐτοῦ τῆς κεφαλῆς. 4 ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς· εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν; 5 ἠδύνατο γὰρ τοῦτο τὸ μύρον πραθῆναι ἐπάνω δηναρίων τριακοσίων καὶ δοθῆναι τοῖς πτωχοῖς· καὶ ἐνεβριμῶντο αὐτῇ. 6 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· ἄφετε αὐτήν· τί αὐτῇ κόπους παρέχετε; καλὸν ἔργον ἠργάσατο ἐν ἐμοί.

Do we have two different reported speech acts here? Or does Mark "sandwich" the content of their objection between two expressions referring to the same (collective) speech act?

Direct speech is the unmarked (default) form of speech reporting in Koine narrative. In the text under consideration, there isn't any formal marking of indirect discourse, which doesn't require formal marking. Since it appears that more than one person is doing the talking, it would seem that the quoted speech amounts to a synopsis of the objections being raised. Is there any contradiction between employing a synopsis and presenting the quote as direct speech?


One function of this synopsis is to provide the setting for Jesus' reply ἄφετε αὐτήν ....
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by cwconrad » November 2nd, 2015, 4:33 pm

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
cwconrad wrote: ... what's not clear is whether the original composer considered the question as one which the ἀγανακτοῦντες spoken openly or whether it's the question Jesus discerned in their expressions.
Mark 14:3 Καὶ ὄντος αὐτοῦ ἐν Βηθανίᾳ ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ Σίμωνος τοῦ λεπροῦ, κατακειμένου αὐτοῦ ἦλθεν γυνὴ ἔχουσα ἀλάβαστρον μύρου νάρδου πιστικῆς πολυτελοῦς, συντρίψασα τὴν ἀλάβαστρον κατέχεεν αὐτοῦ τῆς κεφαλῆς. 4 ἦσαν δέ τινες ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς· εἰς τί ἡ ἀπώλεια αὕτη τοῦ μύρου γέγονεν; 5 ἠδύνατο γὰρ τοῦτο τὸ μύρον πραθῆναι ἐπάνω δηναρίων τριακοσίων καὶ δοθῆναι τοῖς πτωχοῖς· καὶ ἐνεβριμῶντο αὐτῇ. 6 ὁ δὲ Ἰησοῦς εἶπεν· ἄφετε αὐτήν· τί αὐτῇ κόπους παρέχετε; καλὸν ἔργον ἠργάσατο ἐν ἐμοί.

Do we have two different reported speech acts here? Or does Mark "sandwich" the content of their objection between two expressions referring to the same (collective) speech act?

Direct speech is the unmarked (default) form of speech reporting in Koine narrative. In the text under consideration, there isn't any formal marking of indirect discourse, which doesn't require formal marking. Since it appears that more than one person is doing the talking, it would seem that the quoted speech amounts to a synopsis of the objections being raised. Is there any contradiction between employing a synopsis and presenting the quote as direct speech?


One function of this synopsis is to provide the setting for Jesus' reply ἄφετε αὐτήν ....
Sometimes (all too often, in fact) we (i.e. I) fail egregiously to check the larger context. It's a silly thing to do.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Mark 14:4 ἀγανακτοῦντες πρὸς ἑαυτούς Εἰς etc

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 2nd, 2015, 6:08 pm

Carl,
The main issue I was addressing:
Is there any contradiction between employing a synopsis and presenting the quote as direct speech?
I spent some time yesterday reviewing indirect and direct speech as it is discussed in the various grammars. Most of NT grammars assume a knowledge of Attic, Herodotus ... . The treatment of the subject is very uneven. One one extreme we find Dana & Mantey who boil it down to a three point sermon. On the other end H. W. Smyth writes a functional specification. Guy Cooper employs oratio obliqua indirect speech throughout his grammar so your required to get a handle on it if you intend to do much reading.

RE: Mark 14:4 with context it seems that the author represents the substance of objection to the anointing of Jesus and presents it as direct speech. In Koine narrative this wouldn't imply any sort of conscious choice on the part of the author. There is nothing unusual going on here. Just the normal way to narrate a speech act preformed by more the one person but with a unity of content and purpose. In Acts we see examples where Luke draws a distinction between the different elements within a group who are not unified in there expression. I think this happens with the Riot at Ephesus but I may be confusing it with another riot. Mark doesn't need Luke's level of sophistication to report the objection to the anointing of Jesus. Mark is just telling the story the normal way it would be told.

I am certainly open to objections. Would like to find out what others think about this.
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