Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

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Stephen Carlson
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Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 27th, 2011, 8:01 pm

My question concerns a statement in Mark 1:24, οἶδά σε τίς εἶ.

The sense of this statement is not hard to fathom and translations usually render it as "I know who you are."

There are some interesting grammatical issues in this statement, e.g., whether τίς is used for an indirect question or as a relative pronoun, but I would like to focus on the σε.

The relevant part of this verse is not addressed by BDF or Wallace. BDR seems to classify σε as a kind of prolepsis, yet it's more interesting than that because the pronoun is not only pulled forward before the τίς but it is also made the object of the main verb οἶδα. Robertson calls this construction "antiptosis," which is seems merely to label the change in case rather than to explain it.

My Greek reading class will probably get to Mark 1:24 on Thursday. How do I explain this construction?

Stephen

P.S. An analogous construct is Luke 19:3 καὶ ἐζήτει ἰδεῖν Ἰησοῦν τίς ἐστιν ("He was trying to see who Jesus was").
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 27th, 2011, 8:20 pm

sccarlson wrote:My question concerns a statement in Mark 1:24, οἶδά σε τίς εἶ.
sccarlson wrote:P.S. An analogous construct is Luke 19:3 καὶ ἐζήτει ἰδεῖν Ἰησοῦν τίς ἐστιν ("He was trying to see who Jesus was").
I was reading Matthew 12 yesterday and hit on two similar constructs that may be worth chewing on at the same time:

Matthew 12:7 εἰ δὲ ἐγνώκειτε τί ἐστιν· ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν, οὐκ ἂν κατεδικάσατε τοὺς ἀναιτίους.

Matthew 12:11 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· τίς ἔσται ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος ὃς ἕξει πρόβατον ἕν, καὶ ἐὰν ἐμπέσῃ τοῦτο τοῖς σάββασιν εἰς βόθυνον, οὐχὶ κρατήσει αὐτὸ καὶ ἐγερεῖ;
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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cwconrad
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by cwconrad » June 27th, 2011, 8:40 pm

sccarlson wrote:My question concerns a statement in Mark 1:24, οἶδά σε τίς εἶ.

The sense of this statement is not hard to fathom and translations usually render it as "I know who you are."

There are some interesting grammatical issues in this statement, e.g., whether τίς is used for an indirect question or as a relative pronoun, but I would like to focus on the σε.

The relevant part of this verse is not addressed by BDF or Wallace. BDR seems to classify σε as a kind of prolepsis, yet it's more interesting than that because the pronoun is not only pulled forward before the τίς but it is also made the object of the main verb οἶδα. Robertson calls this construction "antiptosis," which is seems merely to label the change in case rather than to explain it.

My Greek reading class will probably get to Mark 1:24 on Thursday. How do I explain this construction?

Stephen

P.S. An analogous construct is Luke 19:3 καὶ ἐζήτει ἰδεῖν Ἰησοῦν τίς ἐστιν ("He was trying to see who Jesus was").
This is an instance of attraction of the subject of an indirect question into a proleptic object of the verb introducing the indirect question. It is not uncommon in Classical Attic. See Smyth §2182 -- and in fact, it's not just indirect questions but other sorts of subordinate clauses too, "especially common after verbs of saying, seeing, hearing, knowing, fearing, effecting."
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

David Lim
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by David Lim » June 27th, 2011, 8:47 pm

sccarlson wrote:My question concerns a statement in Mark 1:24, οἶδά σε τίς εἶ.

The sense of this statement is not hard to fathom and translations usually render it as "I know who you are."

There are some interesting grammatical issues in this statement, e.g., whether τίς is used for an indirect question or as a relative pronoun, but I would like to focus on the σε.

The relevant part of this verse is not addressed by BDF or Wallace. BDR seems to classify σε as a kind of prolepsis, yet it's more interesting than that because the pronoun is not only pulled forward before the τίς but it is also made the object of the main verb οἶδα. Robertson calls this construction "antiptosis," which is seems merely to label the change in case rather than to explain it.

My Greek reading class will probably get to Mark 1:24 on Thursday. How do I explain this construction?

Stephen

P.S. An analogous construct is Luke 19:3 καὶ ἐζήτει ἰδεῖν Ἰησοῦν τίς ἐστιν ("He was trying to see who Jesus was").
Hmm I read them as:
[Mark 1:24] "... οιδα σε τις ει ο αγιος του θεου" = "... I know you, who you are, the holy [one] of God." which expands into "... I know you; I know who you are; you are the holy [one] of God."
[Luke 19:3] "... εζητει ιδειν τον ιησουν τις εστιν ..." = "... [he] was seeking to see Jesus, who [he] is, ..." which expands into "... [he] was seeking to see Jesus, to see who [he] is, ..."
In both cases I took the interrogative pronoun to be in a content clause rather than in a direct question or as a relative pronoun. Is this possible?
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cwconrad
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by cwconrad » June 27th, 2011, 8:48 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
sccarlson wrote:My question concerns a statement in Mark 1:24, οἶδά σε τίς εἶ.
sccarlson wrote:P.S. An analogous construct is Luke 19:3 καὶ ἐζήτει ἰδεῖν Ἰησοῦν τίς ἐστιν ("He was trying to see who Jesus was").
I was reading Matthew 12 yesterday and hit on two similar constructs that may be worth chewing on at the same time:

Matthew 12:7 εἰ δὲ ἐγνώκειτε τί ἐστιν· ἔλεος θέλω καὶ οὐ θυσίαν, οὐκ ἂν κατεδικάσατε τοὺς ἀναιτίους.

Matthew 12:11 ὁ δὲ εἶπεν αὐτοῖς· τίς ἔσται ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος ὃς ἕξει πρόβατον ἕν, καὶ ἐὰν ἐμπέσῃ τοῦτο τοῖς σάββασιν εἰς βόθυνον, οὐχὶ κρατήσει αὐτὸ καὶ ἐγερεῖ;
These are different from the clauses Stephen was asking about. In Mt 12:7 there's no prolepsis -- there would be if it were structured: εἰ δὲ ἐγνώκειτε ἐλεος τί ἐστιν ... it would be comparable. In Mt 12:11 τίς ἔσται ἐξ ὑμῶν ἄνθρωπος ... is a direct question.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Carlson
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 27th, 2011, 8:57 pm

cwconrad wrote:This is an instance of attraction of the subject of an indirect question into a proleptic object of the verb introducing the indirect question. It is not uncommon in Classical Attic. See Smyth §2182 -- and in fact, it's not just indirect questions but other sorts of subordinate clauses too, "especially common after verbs of saying, seeing, hearing, knowing, fearing, effecting."
Thanks for the citation to Smyth. That clears things up.

Stephen

P.S. Could something similar be going on in Mark 10:36 Τί θέλετέ [με] ποιήσω ὑμῖν; ?
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cwconrad
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by cwconrad » June 27th, 2011, 9:12 pm

sccarlson wrote:
cwconrad wrote:This is an instance of attraction of the subject of an indirect question into a proleptic object of the verb introducing the indirect question. It is not uncommon in Classical Attic. See Smyth §2182 -- and in fact, it's not just indirect questions but other sorts of subordinate clauses too, "especially common after verbs of saying, seeing, hearing, knowing, fearing, effecting."
Thanks for the citation to Smyth. That clears things up.

Stephen

P.S. Could something similar be going on in Mark 10:36 Τί θέλετέ [με] ποιήσω ὑμῖν; ?
Well, I think that the tendency of Greek to use the proleptic pronoun (or noun) strengthens the case that the με is by no means so extraordinary. Redundant expressions are not, after all, that uncommon in colloquial speech -- "You can add my name to the list too"
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Stephen Carlson
Posts: 2831
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Re: Mark 1:24 οἶδά σε τίς εἶ

Post by Stephen Carlson » June 27th, 2011, 9:27 pm

cwconrad wrote:
sccarlson wrote:P.S. Could something similar be going on in Mark 10:36 Τί θέλετέ [με] ποιήσω ὑμῖν; ?
Well, I think that the tendency of Greek to use the proleptic pronoun (or noun) strengthens the case that the με is by no means so extraordinary.
That's what I'm thinking too. OK, I've made my peace with this variant.

Stephen
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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