John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

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Jonathan Robie
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John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Question for you discourse analysis folks - how do you interpret the use of οὗτος and ἐκεῖνος John 1:7-8, both referring to John?
John 1:7-8 wrote:οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ.
οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλ’ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
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Re: John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jonathan Robie wrote:Question for you discourse analysis folks - how do you interpret the use of οὗτος and ἐκεῖνος John 1:7-8, both referring to John?
John 1:7-8 wrote:οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν, ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν δι’ αὐτοῦ.
οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλ’ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.
You probably have the δι’ αὐτοῦ pointing to John as well. I've taken the liberty to underline it in that quote that you quoted. To answer the extension of your question that my bring attention to αὐτός has implied ... I think that αὐτός is αὐτός because it performs a syntactic role within the structure of the sentence.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Tony Pope
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Re: John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Tony Pope »

Stephen Levinsohn deals with this in his paper "Making Sense of Participant Reference: How the Same Person can be ὁ ἄνθρωπος & ἐκεῖνος & οὗτος & ὁ (Jn9)", page 7. http://www-01.sil.org/~levinsohns/Parti ... erence.pdf

Briefly, in verse 7 John is (temporarily) the centre of attention, so the proximal demonstrative οὗτος is used to refer to him, while in verse 8 he takes second place to τὸ φῶς (which refers to Jesus) and so reference to John is made by the distal demonstrative ἐκεῖνος.

The point is anticipated in N. Turner's Syntax volume 3 in the Moulton-Howard-Turner Grammar, page 46.

For further discussion and examples, Levinsohn's paper is worth perusal.
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Thanks, Tony - this is extremely helpful.

I'm teaching John, starting with Chapter 1, and I want to focus more on teaching common words. οὗτος and ἐκεῖνος are important ones, especially in John, so I'll want to think about how best to teach this.

Funk also addresses this, I'm working on unpacking this.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Paul-Nitz
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Re: John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Paul-Nitz »

  • 6 Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος, ἀπεσταλμένος παρὰ θεοῦ, ὄνομα αὐτῷ Ἰωάννης· 7 οὗτος ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός, ἵνα πάντες πιστεύσωσιν διʼ αὐτοῦ. 8 οὐκ ἦν ἐκεῖνος τὸ φῶς, ἀλλʼ ἵνα μαρτυρήσῃ περὶ τοῦ φωτός.
How about this explanation?

Verses 1-5 John is talking about Christ. In Verse 6, we have a new topic / person. He is introduced in an impersonal way Ἐγένετο ἄνθρωπος. We don’t absolutely need a personal pronoun at the beginning of Verse 7. John could have just started the sentence with "ἦλθεν εἰς μαρτυρίαν." But a pronoun helps understanding.

αὐτός is not a option since it is reserved for the intensive he-himself. οὗτος stands in as a default, bland “he” (sometimes ὁ δὲ is used also for “he”).

In verse 8, we really need a personal pronoun because we’re distinguishing between the earlier subject (φως) and this new one. Plus, we need to refer back to ουτος. So, εκεινος works nicely.
Paul D. Nitz - Lilongwe Malawi
Jonathan Robie
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Re: John 1:7-8 οὗτος, ἐκεῖνος

Post by Jonathan Robie »

That makes sense. It's similar to what Runge says in http://www.ntdiscourse.org/2008/11/near ... tinctions/:
Runge wrote:There are certain elements in a discourse that are thematic, or that which ‘is being talked about’. In narrative contexts, it is primarily the events that are thematic. There can also be a thematic participant, which Levinsohn describes as “that participant around whom the paragraph is organized, about whom the paragraph speaks”. In the instructional portions of the epistles, Levinsohn claims that by default the exhortations and the addressees are the thematic focus; in the expository portions, such as in the book of Hebrews, the expository theses and the main theme of the exposition are thematic, by default.

When there are other elements in the discourse that potentially compete with the default thematic element, the near and far demonstrative pronouns provide a means for the writer to disambiguate the role that these competing elements play. They provide an efficient way of marking an entity’s thematic importance. The near demonstrative marks entities that are thematic in the context.

In contrast, the far demonstrative ἐκεῖνος marks entities that are not thematic in the context. For instance, if minor participants perform actions in a series of events, one might think they have become the new thematic participant, the center of attention. Use of the far demonstrative as a substitute for a personal pronoun allows the writer the mark them as athematic, meaning the center of attention remains focused on the default thematic participant. The athematic participant is only of passing interest.
Runge wrote:Consider the usage in John 1:7-8, again with some context provided.

Image

John the Baptist is only a passing thematic interest. He is marked as thematic in v. 7, but the center of attention quickly changes to the one that he came to proclaim: Jesus. “The light” in v. 8 becomes the thematic center, and John’s athematic role is made clear through the switch to the far demonstrative. Thematically speaking, John decreases so that Jesus may increase, so to speak.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
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