In Classical Greek grammar ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς was used instead of the Koine ἑαυτοῖς. If this is a grammatical "false friend" from the Attic grammar, what did it actually mean to a Koine recipient?1 Corinthians 11:13 wrote:Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε·
1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive?
Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive?
Following on the same line of questioning from the other thread - P.Oxy.1482,3-13 following the classical standard?, and mindful of RDecker's comments in Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar" - in other sub-fora, I want to ask how this phrase would have been interpreted in a Koine context:
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
"Just those among you."
I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun. Reflexives require a specific and identifiable referent, whereas here Paul isn't point out anyone specifically.
Now, Paul could have done that and used the reflexive and the propositional content would have been the same. There's just more than one way to skin a cat.
I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun. Reflexives require a specific and identifiable referent, whereas here Paul isn't point out anyone specifically.
Now, Paul could have done that and used the reflexive and the propositional content would have been the same. There's just more than one way to skin a cat.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
-
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive).Stephen Hughes wrote:In Classical Greek grammar ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς was used instead of the Koine ἑαυτοῖς. If this is a grammatical "false friend" from the Attic grammar, what did it actually mean to a Koine recipient?1 Corinthians 11:13 wrote:Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε·
It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.MAubrey wrote:"Just those among you."
I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
-
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive. The ESV, NAS, and NIV all agree with me, for what it's worth.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
Stephen Carlson wrote:Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive)
I don't really understand the difference between those two - reflexive and intensive. I'm assuming that it means that he is leaving the judgement to them, rather than letting them act as judges for themselves.Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive.
It is also not too clear to me whether there is an expectation that the the local situation should make up the rules by which they should be judged or whether Paul was assuming that both he and the Corinthians shared a common framework of understanding, and he is subtly reminding them of that.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
-
- Posts: 3323
- Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
Are you saying that because it is dative? There must have been a word-order that he could have chosen that would make it more easily identifiable as that.MAubrey wrote:"Just those among you."
I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun.
Reflexives require a specific and identifiable referent, whereas here Paul isn't point[ing] out anyone specifically.
The referent for a reflexive is often in the verb. The internal subject -τε, would be the one here if it were reflexive.
ἑαυτοῖς? Instead of what? Would it have become "Ἐν ὑμῖν ἑαυτοῖς"? or "Ἐν ἑαυτοῖς"?Now, Paul could have done that and used the reflexive and the propositional content would have been the same. There's just more than one way to skin a cat
When you say "the propositional content would have been the same", that means that it would amount to the same thing, right?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
-
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
Translation is not necessarily analysis, particularly when the goal is to be idiomatic, as here. At any rate, BDAG's analysis is as an intensive.Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive. The ESV, NAS, and NIV all agree with me, for what it's worth.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
-
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
What's the issue? You don't understand what "intensive" means? Or what the distinction is between them? (Note that English "-self" is polysemous among intensive and reflexive, so glossing into English is not likely to be helpful.)Stephen Hughes wrote:Stephen Carlson wrote:Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive)I don't really understand the difference between those two - reflexive and intensive.Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
Less misreading and more brain fart, but yes. Yes, I did. I made the assumption that κρίνω could take a dative object without checking it. It can't. At least, not unless that dative is, funny enough, reflexive.Stephen Carlson wrote:It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.
But the cat-skinning statement stands.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive
I take it back. There are some non-reflexive dative's elsewhere.MAubrey wrote:Less misreading and more brain fart, but yes. Yes, I did. I made the assumption that κρίνω could take a dative object without checking it. It can't. At least, not unless that dative is, funny enough, reflexive.Stephen Carlson wrote:It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.
Sirach 8:14
μὴ δικάζου μετὰ κριτοῦ, κατὰ γὰρ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ κρινοῦσιν αὐτῷ
Epistle of Barnabas 6.1
Τίς ὁ κρινόμενός μοι;
Matthew 5:40 (a beautiful reciprocal middle btw)
καὶ τῷ θέλοντί σοι κριθῆναι
It seems that if the object is benefactive/malfactive or reciprocal, a dative pronoun works very well, which isn't really surprising.
Still, that's neither here nor there for the topic at hand...sorry about that...
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com