1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive?

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Following on the same line of questioning from the other thread - P.Oxy.1482,3-13 following the classical standard?, and mindful of RDecker's comments in Re: Smyth "A Greek Grammar" - in other sub-fora, I want to ask how this phrase would have been interpreted in a Koine context:
1 Corinthians 11:13 wrote:Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε·
In Classical Greek grammar ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς was used instead of the Koine ἑαυτοῖς. If this is a grammatical "false friend" from the Attic grammar, what did it actually mean to a Koine recipient?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
MAubrey
Posts: 1091
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by MAubrey »

"Just those among you."

I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun. Reflexives require a specific and identifiable referent, whereas here Paul isn't point out anyone specifically.

Now, Paul could have done that and used the reflexive and the propositional content would have been the same. There's just more than one way to skin a cat.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
1 Corinthians 11:13 wrote:Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε·
In Classical Greek grammar ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς was used instead of the Koine ἑαυτοῖς. If this is a grammatical "false friend" from the Attic grammar, what did it actually mean to a Koine recipient?
Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive).
MAubrey wrote:"Just those among you."

I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun.
It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 2159
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive. The ESV, NAS, and NIV all agree with me, for what it's worth.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Carlson wrote:Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive)
Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive.
I don't really understand the difference between those two - reflexive and intensive. I'm assuming that it means that he is leaving the judgement to them, rather than letting them act as judges for themselves.

It is also not too clear to me whether there is an expectation that the the local situation should make up the rules by which they should be judged or whether Paul was assuming that both he and the Corinthians shared a common framework of understanding, and he is subtly reminding them of that.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Hughes
Posts: 3323
Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Stephen Hughes »

MAubrey wrote:"Just those among you."

I'd say that in this case, αὐτοῖς isn't a reflexive. It's just a non-referential 3rd person pronoun.
Are you saying that because it is dative? There must have been a word-order that he could have chosen that would make it more easily identifiable as that.
Reflexives require a specific and identifiable referent, whereas here Paul isn't point[ing] out anyone specifically.

The referent for a reflexive is often in the verb. The internal subject -τε, would be the one here if it were reflexive.
Now, Paul could have done that and used the reflexive and the propositional content would have been the same. There's just more than one way to skin a cat
ἑαυτοῖς? Instead of what? Would it have become "Ἐν ὑμῖν ἑαυτοῖς"? or "Ἐν ἑαυτοῖς"?

When you say "the propositional content would have been the same", that means that it would amount to the same thing, right?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive. The ESV, NAS, and NIV all agree with me, for what it's worth.
Translation is not necessarily analysis, particularly when the goal is to be idiomatic, as here. At any rate, BDAG's analysis is as an intensive.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Stephen Carlson
Posts: 3351
Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
Location: Melbourne
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by Stephen Carlson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:Usually, it's construed as an intensive, not as a reflexive; see BDAG αὐτός 1aβ "ἐν υμῖν αὐτοὶς among yourselves" (where the English yourselves is intensive, not reflexive)
Barry Hofstetter wrote:I have never seen this as anything other than a reflexive.
I don't really understand the difference between those two - reflexive and intensive.
What's the issue? You don't understand what "intensive" means? Or what the distinction is between them? (Note that English "-self" is polysemous among intensive and reflexive, so glossing into English is not likely to be helpful.)
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
MAubrey
Posts: 1091
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by MAubrey »

Stephen Carlson wrote:It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.
Less misreading and more brain fart, but yes. Yes, I did. I made the assumption that κρίνω could take a dative object without checking it. It can't. At least, not unless that dative is, funny enough, reflexive.

But the cat-skinning statement stands.
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
MAubrey
Posts: 1091
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 8:52 pm
Contact:

Re: 1Cor.11:13 Ἐν ὑμῖν αὐτοῖς κρίνατε· A classical reflexive

Post by MAubrey »

MAubrey wrote:
Stephen Carlson wrote:It appears to me that you may have misread αὐτοῖς as the accusative αὐτούς. Otherwise, I don't understand how you're reading the dative αὐτοῖς.
Less misreading and more brain fart, but yes. Yes, I did. I made the assumption that κρίνω could take a dative object without checking it. It can't. At least, not unless that dative is, funny enough, reflexive.
I take it back. There are some non-reflexive dative's elsewhere.

Sirach 8:14
μὴ δικάζου μετὰ κριτοῦ, κατὰ γὰρ τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ κρινοῦσιν αὐτῷ

Epistle of Barnabas 6.1
Τίς ὁ κρινόμενός μοι;

Matthew 5:40 (a beautiful reciprocal middle btw)
καὶ τῷ θέλοντί σοι κριθῆναι

It seems that if the object is benefactive/malfactive or reciprocal, a dative pronoun works very well, which isn't really surprising.

Still, that's neither here nor there for the topic at hand...sorry about that...
Mike Aubrey, Linguist
SIL International
Koine-Greek.com
Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”