Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Jonathan Robie wrote:Suppose we were doing either set of synonyms and antonyms related to κτήτωρ for a new version of Louw and Nida or a paper on the concept of ownership in Hellenistic Greek as understood through the word κτήτωρ and other related words. I think we would have to note both interpretations as possible and go looking for other contexts where certain terms occur together. In some cases, more than one interpretation is possible, so you have to leave your options open until there's enough evidence to make a definitive decision. It takes work and time.
:?:

I don't aspire to do anything big or great with Greek. I will not rewrite Louw and Nida or prepare a paper with you. I don't want or need to pretend to be an academic or to sound like someone that anyone would necessarily pay attention to. If someone (like yourself) comes to the same conclusion via another method, that could be good. If they come to a different opinion, then that is good too.

At present my vocabulary acquisition aims are to at least initially acquire those words words starting with kappa, occurring just once in Trenchard's list, which I don't know yet. Discussing them in English, working through similar examples in Greek, and memorising simple definitions in Greek seem like good ways to go about that.

Words occurring just once, make up about a quarter of the entire New Testament vocabulary. I am willing to accept that "property owner" is the meaning of κτήτωρ and to move on to other words. I think that is discussion has given me a broader understanding of what a κτήτωρ can do in society. I believe that well contexted thoughts will help me to actively retain the word and meaning in memory.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:Words occurring just once, make up about a quarter of the entire New Testament vocabulary. I am willing to accept that "property owner" is the meaning of κτήτωρ and to move on to other words. I think that is discussion has given me a broader understanding of what a κτήτωρ can do in society. I believe that well contexted thoughts will help me to actively retain the word and meaning in memory.
You are willing to speculate about meanings of words beyond what the lexicons tell us, "correct" their meaning without doing the work to determine whether or not you are right, and move on? You keep repeating that "property owner" is the meaning of κτήτωρ as though we've proven that. We haven't. I think it's important to be clear about that.

The lexicons are more reliable than this kind of speculation. This is especially true for rarely used words, where finding enough instances of the word to learn something useful requires access to TLG and other resources.
Stephen Hughes wrote:I don't aspire to do anything big or great with Greek. I will not rewrite Louw and Nida or prepare a paper with you.
But I think what you are doing here is aspiring to know more than the people who wrote the lexicons. And that's the level of work required to do so.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

"owner" is not a good definition. It is too vague.

In the NT example and three others, it means "property owner". In the Koine one that you mentioned it has at least a 50% chance that it means "property owner". I'm not sure how to value the relevance of the Byzantine era examples.

We know for sure κτήτωρ means "property owner" from (at least) 4.5 instances. I will stick with what can be known and we do know.

Without some limitation on definition, the word appears more powerful than it is. The English gloss "owner" is used in so many ways that κτήτωρ is not.
You keep repeating that "property owner" is the meaning of κτήτωρ as though we've proven that.
What I'm repeating is that I am willing to accept that "property owner" is the meaning ... That has two ways of thinking. The first is that I can see that meaning used, but haven't found another meaning, and I am not so exacting on accuracy that I need to have a full and definitive definition before I can work with it, and move on. I don't want to prove I'm right, and I'm not involved in the proving process except perhaps incidentally.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Jonathan Robie
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Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Jonathan Robie »

Stephen Hughes wrote:"owner" is not a good definition. It is too vague.

In the NT example and three others, it means "property owner". In the Koine one that you mentioned it has at least a 50% chance that it means "property owner". I'm not sure how to value the relevance of the Byzantine era examples.

We know for sure κτήτωρ means "property owner" from (at least) 4.5 instances. I will stick with what can be known and we do know.

Without some limitation on definition, the word appears more powerful than it is. The English gloss "owner" is used in so many ways that κτήτωρ is not.
In so many ways that it is not in those 4.5 examples, at least. But I think you know those meanings in English because you have encountered the word "owner" a lot more frequently than 4.5 times.
Stephen Hughes wrote:
You keep repeating that "property owner" is the meaning of κτήτωρ as though we've proven that.
What I'm repeating is that I am willing to accept that "property owner" is the meaning ... That has two ways of thinking. The first is that I can see that meaning used, but haven't found another meaning, and I am not so exacting on accuracy that I need to have a full and definitive definition before I can work with it, and move on. I don't want to prove I'm right, and I'm not involved in the proving process except perhaps incidentally.
I think you've established that "property owner" is a meaning, not that it is the meaning. I don't think that you've established that the word cannot be used to refer to ownership of oxen, slaves, swords, etc.

I don't think we have to prove whether it does or not, that would take a lot of work. But I'm allergic to authoritative statements made without proof.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/
Stephen Hughes
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Joined: February 26th, 2013, 7:12 am

Re: Ac.4:34 κτήτωρ

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Where is an authoritative statement?

I'm not interested in establishing anything. I don't have anything I want to prove. If somebody is able to reach the same conclusion that I have about κτήτωρ by their own way of finding knowledge then that will be great. Arriving at the same point in a number of different ways is much better than 100 people being led to a conclusion by clever words and well-constructed arguments.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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