Blessed by the Spirit

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cwconrad
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by cwconrad » January 27th, 2016, 10:22 am

The text:
Mt 5:3 Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι,
ὅτι αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν
.
My interpretative maxim:
1 Cor 10:23 Πάντα ἔξεστιν ἀλλ᾿ οὐ πάντα συμφέρει· πάντα ἔξεστιν ἀλλ᾿ οὐ πάντα οἰκοδομεῖ.
Paraphasing this to suit the context: "Any interpretation is possible, but not every interpretation makes sense; any interpretation is possible, but not every interpretation construes."

I have been utterly astounded to follow this picaresque thread, wondering repeatedly how it got to this point and where in the world it is headed.

Although attention has frequently been called during the course of the thread to the importance of context, much of the discussion has focused upon the clause “Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι” viewed quite apart from its context. I don’t quite understand why it should be thought that there’s some value in examining the clause outside of any context — especially when the context in which it appears is replete with several exemplars of the clause-initial μακάριοι with ellipsis of εἰσὶν and a subject in the form of an article and a substantival element, the whole sequence ending with μακάριοί ἐστε, ὁτάν … The pattern is one of the most common of all in Greek: predicate word + copula (often elliptical, as here) + subject. Also ignored in the speculation is the improbability of construal of τῷ πνεύματι with the clause-opening μακάριοι; we should certainly in ordinary circumstances assume that τῷ πνεύματι construes with οἱ πτωχοί which constitutes the subject of μακάριοι. That is to say, the construction of this clause ought, I honestly believe, to be recognized by a reader of Greek who has read more than a score of chapters of the GNT, as a standard structural pattern of Greek expository prose.

Once opened up for speculative interpretation apart from its context, the thread has taken several tacks in its leisurely drift out into the lagoon. μακάριοι may perhaps be a verb instead of an adjective — it may imply μακαρίζονται. If that’s permissible, then τῷ πνεύματι might be an instrument or agent (the latter much more likely with a perfect or aorist verb form — or with a verbal adjective such as μακαριστέον — but that, as Stephen Carlson notes, is a Classical construction, not so common in Koine Greek). If τῷ πνεύματι is an instrumental dative to be construed with μακάριοι viewed as verbal, that’s problematic because it implies that τὸ πνεῦμα is inanimate. But that too may be based upon a questionable assumption that “spirit” must be a “person”. Gender gets us nowhere toward demonstrating that assumption: the noun πνεῦμα is neuter (and may just as well mean “wind” or “breath” as “spirit”); claims that παρακλῆτος is used with masculine pronouns and must be personal reduce to a matter of gender of nouns and grammatical agreement with the gender of nouns.

It would make far more sense to explore the collocation of πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι in this clause. In doing so, one ought perhaps to consider at the same time the Lucan parallel to this verse:
Luke 6:20 … Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοί, ὅτι ὑμετέρα ἐστὶν ἡ βασιλεία τοῦ θεοῦ

and perhaps also to consider the range of usage and reference for the word πτωχός in the GNT. That, however, would go far beyond the grammatical construction and deep into the semantics of the phrase οἱ πτωχοί in the gospels and in early church history, which is to say, far beyond the proper focus of B-Greek discussion.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 27th, 2016, 12:45 pm

Way too much common sense, Carl. You're just spoiling the fun... :roll: :lol:
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 27th, 2016, 1:05 pm

Following up on persons in the instrumental dative, Smyth simply asserts:

b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » January 27th, 2016, 1:08 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Following up on persons in the instrumental dative, Smyth simply asserts:

b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
RE: instrument as agent τῷ πνεύματι

A. T. Robertson p.820 g, In the N. T. , as in ancient Greek (Gildersleeve Syntax, p. 72), the instrument is sometimes personified and treated as an agent.
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C. Stirling Bartholomew

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 27th, 2016, 1:24 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:Smyth simply asserts:

b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
Hmmm, I wonder if that explains 1 Corinthians 13:1 Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

cwconrad
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by cwconrad » January 27th, 2016, 2:06 pm

Dare I take another whack at this hydra-headed monster of a thread? ναί, καίπερ μετὰ φόβου καὶ τρόμου ...
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Smyth simply asserts:

b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
Hmmm, I wonder if that explains 1 Corinthians 13:1 Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.
Watch your tongue, sir, lest you be misunderstood; 'tis a fate that has befallen many in this forum.
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Jonathan Robie
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Location: Durham, NC
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 27th, 2016, 2:15 pm

cwconrad wrote:
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Smyth simply asserts:

b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
Hmmm, I wonder if that explains 1 Corinthians 13:1 Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.
Watch your tongue, sir, lest you be misunderstood; 'tis a fate that has befallen many in this forum.
My post was meant to be a pun, of course, so if anyone is inclined to take it seriously, consider yourself warned.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 27th, 2016, 2:52 pm

There was some discussion of what is in scope on B-Greek in this thread. I split that off to a separate thread: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... =39&t=3556

Let's discuss that topic over in the new thread, and stick with the original topic here.
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

cwconrad
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Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by cwconrad » January 27th, 2016, 3:15 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Smyth simply asserts:
b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
Jonathan Robie wrote:Hmmm, I wonder if that explains 1 Corinthians 13:1 Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.
cwconrad wrote:Watch your tongue, sir, lest you be misunderstood; 'tis a fate that has befallen many in this forum.
Jonathan Robie wrote:My post was meant to be a pun, of course, so if anyone is inclined to take it seriously, consider yourself warned.
So, as things turned out, you were misunderstood -- by me!
0 x
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3486
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 27th, 2016, 3:19 pm

Sorry if that was too subtle.
Jonathan Robie wrote:
Barry Hofstetter wrote:Smyth simply asserts:
b. Persons may be regarded as instruments: ““φυλαττόμενοι φύλαξι” defending themselves by pickets” X. A. 6.4.27. Often in poetry (S. Ant. 164).
Hmmm, I wonder if that explains 1 Corinthians 13:1 Ἐὰν ταῖς γλώσσαις τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαλῶ καὶ τῶν ἀγγέλων, ἀγάπην δὲ μὴ ἔχω, γέγονα χαλκὸς ἠχῶν ἢ κύμβαλον ἀλαλάζον.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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