Blessed by the Spirit

Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1727
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 28th, 2018, 6:22 pm

m_bauer wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 11:59 am
Hi Everybody,

The direct, direct translation (Dative object) should be still the best: "Blessed be the poor (given, sacrificed= done as such) to ghost!"

This is my first post. I got a different opinion on the first sentences, thus highly meaningful, radical and erosive, of a or the Christian base text, their is another thread about the same topic early and:
this is a little late to connect to this thread, maybe I should open a own post, with a reference to the questioner's thread.

Μακάριοι οἱ πτωχοὶ τῷ πνεύματι, ὅτι αὐτῶν ἐστιν ἡ βασιλεία τῶν οὐρανῶν.
is the sentence in question. I think we are mislead.



So ghost says: give me unvenality, that is when we leave -supposedly- as cut. Do not sell me, the thinking, as a ware for a profit, it does not matter, what a society tells. So that's all thievery of those, who want otherwise. One imagines, how deep was and is the conflict with societal practice.

They turned it around into being "humble" (well, to anything uncertain) which gets its contradiction from the word "splendid" twice in the same phrase,
- even though no reason to get rigid, as verse 5 "praeis" tells, how to really distract the profit of it, no?
Or even: "stupid" (which gets it contradiction by the warning against a μωρανθῇ, that is being made stupid, few sentences later). The questioner did not came without reason.

I am not the first one who detects this: Th. Adorno, member of the Frankfurt School, in Minima Moralia, Aphorism 127 Wishful Thinking. - Intelligenz ist eine moralische Kategorie. Die Trennung von Gefühl und Verstand, die es möglich macht, den Dummkopf frei und selig zu sprechen ...
He criticises, that it is found an ideology effort: to turn it some how as Greeks did: You are herd, we are the shepherds. Keep stupids but harmless.

We are not open to it, so we change meaning. That is what happens to us.
Welcome to B-Greek. I have allowed your post through, but make sure that you contact a moderator to make sure that your screen name matches your real name fully, per B-Greek policy.

I am assuming that English is not your first language? With the possibility that I may be reading you to say something else other than what you are actually saying:

1) "ghost" is an archaism in English when translating πνεῦμα, and should not be used at all in modern usage for most contexts. For the writers of the NT, it really meant normally what we mean by spirit. A ghost was a φάντασμα, Matt 14:25, Mark 6:49, although admittedly Luke uses πνεῦμα in a similar sense in 24:37. But that's about the only context in which one could justify such a translation, and "spirit" works just as well for modern English.

2) τῷ πνεύματι above is a dative of reference, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, not a dative of indirect object. You also don't seem really to understand what μακάριοι, "blessed" means, although exactly what you think it means is not clear to me.

3) Remember that we discuss Greek as Greek on this forum, usage, meaning syntax, discourse and the like, but our primary language to do so is English. If you cite German or another modern language, please provide a full translation for everyone's benefit.

4) Along those lines, remember that we don't discuss theology on the forum, but Greek. It strikes me that you may have a theological agenda in posting, which is fine, as long as we stick to the Greek. You might say it's all Greek to us, to turn a common platitude on its head.
0 x


N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » May 29th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Thanks for answering.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 6:22 pm
2) τῷ πνεύματι above is a dative of reference, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, not a dative of indirect object.
So you missed my context of an erosion of the dative and an ideology behind or you simply disagree with it or even call it nonsense or altogether. It is just my bet and I wanted to share it.
I might further note, that you push it Latin ablative case, thing, we had reasons to even abolish again: German got 4 cases like Greek and back to the roots.
If there comes bare dative without the preposition "in" or the like in first sentence, one got reason to hold on, and watch out or listens for original dative aspects in it, if there is or could be a "transfer of a thing or person (slavery is first ground issue!) to something or somebody", - but not the exact nothing of it.
And if so, are not we presented as fleeing something?
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 6:22 pm
You also don't seem really to understand what μακάριοι, "blessed" means, although exactly what you think it means is not clear to me.
good, happy, lucky, with best wishes and hopes. Splendid I hit. I can not find how this matters some much in this context. Praise says my dictionary. To give it a high price, graceful. In one word: heavenly?
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 6:22 pm
3) Remember that we discuss Greek as Greek on this forum, usage, meaning syntax, discourse and the like, but our primary language to do so is English. If you cite German or another modern language, please provide a full translation for everyone's benefit.
I go for it.
0 x

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » May 29th, 2018, 2:50 pm

m_bauer wrote:
May 28th, 2018, 11:59 am

I am not the first one who detects this: Th. Adorno, member of the Frankfurt School, in Minima Moralia, Aphorism 127 Wishful Thinking. - Intelligenz ist eine moralische Kategorie. Die Trennung von Gefühl und Verstand, die es möglich macht, den Dummkopf frei und selig zu sprechen ...
..., hypostasiert die historisch zustandegekommene Aufspaltung des Menschen nach Funktionen.
Here comes my translating:
Intelligence is a moral category. The separation of feeling and mind, makes it possible, to speak the simple minded free and blessed, .. and historically goes along with the hallowing of the functional splitting of a person.
0 x

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1727
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Barry Hofstetter » May 30th, 2018, 3:39 pm

Again, not altogether clear what you are arguing. I will note that there is no such thing as a "root" or "bare" dative. There are only the various uses of the dative in context. As for the ablative, if you go far enough back in the history of the Greek language, you'll find that it existed, as in Mycenaean Greek, but drops out of the language by the time Homer is being recorded.

I don't think anyone in the history of interpretation doubts how τῷ πεύματι is being used here.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » June 2nd, 2018, 12:05 pm

Thanks for discussing.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 3:39 pm
Again, not altogether clear what you are arguing.
Donating to god you give your last shirt for him.
"tw pneumati" "Air" is a denominator, but the concept behind a special thing among all things. They thought one could not have an image of, as a first rule. It is the first or second commandment for ancient and modern Jews/Christians. We wont come to an end fixing this absolutely. But we can have sure, that they used it that way.
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 3:39 pm
I will note that there is no such thing as a "root" or "bare" dative. There are only the various uses of the dative in context. As for the ablative, if you go far enough back in the history of the Greek language, you'll find that it existed, as in Mycenaean Greek, but drops out of the language by the time Homer is being recorded.
Second: Aha, thanks! Interesting enough! It fits fine in my line of humbleness Matth. 5.5 discussion.

This goes stereotype. First comes the usage, the generation, then like snapshot the descriptive grammar. The original dative is the receiver of a giving: Every child will invoke that intuitively, the grammars could do no other than to learn from it.
"Give me the apple!" So "me": (In)direct object says the English ancient Greek Grammar, I mean. But does it matter, if it says, I should ask? No!
I don't think anyone in the history of interpretation doubts how τῷ πεύματι is being used here.
First reply: To hold this (limiting) believe, the language English comes in.
Do not know, if they were doubting, at least one can hold fast, that they were differing both in syntax and in semantics.

"Donating to god (that is your free thinking, your arguable individuation) you will end up giving away your last shirt for him and that is good so", says I, was the original news. Individuationsprinzip Wikipedia only non English.
It needed to erode focally into: "Blessed are the stupids", till after the Lutherans, according to Adorno. There is a wide scale of meaning between "stay mentally poor" and "selling everything to get mentally rich", for example -even to the ancient authors-: "be humble", which I discussed a little in my first post and Matthew 5:5.

I am not sure, but it seems to me, that you are trolling a bit, which I find, ok, so to certain point I am thankful. Not sure, but I start doing circles explaining.

Good Luck
0 x

Jonathan Robie
Posts: 3638
Joined: May 5th, 2011, 5:34 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Contact:

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Jonathan Robie » June 2nd, 2018, 3:51 pm

m_bauer wrote:
June 2nd, 2018, 12:05 pm
I am not sure, but it seems to me, that you are trolling a bit, which I find, ok, so to certain point I am thankful. Not sure, but I start doing circles explaining.
I don't think he is trolling, I think he is simply talking about Greek syntax and vocabulary.

I see you doing circles, but so far, it feels more like free association than a discussion of the Greek language. You seem to be assuming people here don't know how to read Greek or read standard Greek reference works.

You need to provide some evidence of your claims.
0 x
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » June 3rd, 2018, 5:41 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
June 2nd, 2018, 3:51 pm
You seem to be assuming people here don't know how to read Greek or read standard Greek reference works.
Oh, no. Not that far.
0 x

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » June 3rd, 2018, 6:17 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
May 30th, 2018, 3:39 pm
I will note that there is no such thing as a "root" or "bare" dative.
-bare naked because in first line and with out preposition
-addressing: "root" dative

Well, I thought you are right: even if the "early enough" is true, there might be an even earlier nonetheless. Instead lets talk then of an
-economical dative: as in Smyth's Grammar first paragraph about Dative 1450 a) the name would suggest in a world, in which money and slavery happened to happen,

which includes then a
-wide field of grammatically distinguished effects,
a) because of the economic aspect of the dative keeping being central even for derivations
b) because verb
c) and semantics of the noun pneumati are missing.

However the economical context is fastened by mentioning of the poor ones: ptoxoi the (logical accusative). This piously according to the ban of images and core believe. ...
compare same text, Matth. 6:24 mamona. I feel it necessary to support, that God is described only by negation, which addressed money a system since these days.
So we come to:
-a contemplation about dative derivations allowed and unallowed, among the latter: making us forget the economical implications of our time, that is eroding it. Compare same text Matth. 5:13 moranthä (This paragraph in deed plays with a persons group given to a container spatially.)

-a contemplation about the roots of a dative: the usage in pre-money, pre-slavery times. In this times, before the economic aspect had been that dominant, perhaps the spatial aspect of the dative was within the original idea, where a object set to move (accusative) passed a fixed point (dative). (Someone shoots a ball tw the field.) In this imagination we shall recall even an "utopia" out of a "pneumai".

PS:
did not you read the quote from Minima Moralia, which referred to this sentence?
0 x

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1727
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by Barry Hofstetter » June 5th, 2018, 10:15 am

Again, this makes very little sense. From what I can determine:

πτωχοί is nominative, not accusative.
Smyth wrote:1450. The Greek dative does duty for three cases: the dative proper, and two lost cases, the instrumental and the locative.
Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (p. 337). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.

No mention of an "economical dative" in 1450 of Smyth, in fact, no mention of an "economical" dative anywhere. You appear to have created this category out of whole cloth.
0 x
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
Χαίρετε ἐν κυρίῳ πάντοτε· πάλιν ἐρῶ, χαίρετε

m_bauer
Posts: 13
Joined: May 28th, 2018, 11:28 am

Re: Blessed by the Spirit

Post by m_bauer » June 6th, 2018, 6:17 am

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
June 5th, 2018, 10:15 am
Again, this makes very little sense. From what I can determine:

πτωχοί is nominative, not accusative.
Smyth wrote:1450. The Greek dative does duty for three cases: the dative proper, and two lost cases, the instrumental and the locative.
Smyth, H. W. (1920). A Greek Grammar for Colleges (p. 337). New York; Cincinnati; Chicago; Boston; Atlanta: American Book Company.

No mention of an "economical dative" in 1450 of Smyth, in fact, no mention of an "economical" dative anywhere. You appear to have created this category out of whole cloth.
Hi Barry Hofstetter,
thank you for discussing first.
-1450
The Greek dative does duty for three cases: the dative proper, and two lost cases, the instrumental and the locative.

a. The dative derives its name (ἡ δοτικὴ πτῶσις, casus dativus) from the use with διδόναι (1469).
There is a link to the "give", διδόναι , how would you overlook that?
https://grammars.alpheios.net/smyth/xht ... .18_div3.9
Barry Hofstetter wrote:You appear to have created this category out of whole cloth.
Is there somewhere to ask for permission? Indeed not. "Cannot be seen other than." from Jesus's or Matthew's sight, it says.

-πτωχοί was logical accusative, if one assumed a passive, as I did. Somewhere in Smith's dative conception this is written, too.
How would you overlook that?
Well, this is trivial.
  • The house (nominative) is given to the cat (Dative).
    (nominative) Someone gives a (accusative) house to the cat. (dative)
By all your rejection, I might note, that producing something sellable or printable, does not absolve anybody, neither me nor you, from thinking, which is in first line speculation.
All the best
0 x

Post Reply

Return to “New Testament”