Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

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Stephen Hughes
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Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 30th, 2016, 6:46 am

In this verse, the stone presumably sunk under the waters of the sea:
Revelation 18:21 wrote:Καὶ ἦρεν εἷς ἄγγελος ἰσχυρὸς λίθον ὡς μύλον μέγαν, καὶ ἔβαλεν εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν.
Does the same assumption hold true for this verse, that the stars ended up covered by the earth?
Revelation 12:4 wrote:Καὶ ἡ οὐρὰ αὐτοῦ σύρει τὸ τρίτον τῶν ἀστέρων τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ ἔβαλεν αὐτοὺς εἰς τὴν γῆν·
I'm thinking more logically that there would be craters.
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 30th, 2016, 11:51 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:In this verse, the stone presumably sunk under the waters of the sea:
Revelation 18:21 wrote:Καὶ ἦρεν εἷς ἄγγελος ἰσχυρὸς λίθον ὡς μύλον μέγαν, καὶ ἔβαλεν εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν.
Does the same assumption hold true for this verse, that the stars ended up covered by the earth?
Revelation 12:4 wrote:Καὶ ἡ οὐρὰ αὐτοῦ σύρει τὸ τρίτον τῶν ἀστέρων τοῦ οὐρανοῦ, καὶ ἔβαλεν αὐτοὺς εἰς τὴν γῆν·
I'm thinking more logically that there would be craters.
I had thought we were talking about two entirely different kinds of entities in these two verses. Whatever the entity is in 18:21, the ἀστέρες of 12:4 seem to be spiritual followers of ὁ δράκων μέγας of 12:3. It`s impossible to talk about these symbols in concrete terms without first deciding what they represent.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 30th, 2016, 12:18 pm

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:It`s impossible to talk about these symbols in concrete terms without first deciding what they represent.
What do these symbols represent?
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 30th, 2016, 12:51 pm

Stephen Hughes wrote:
Thomas Dolhanty wrote:It`s impossible to talk about these symbols in concrete terms without first deciding what they represent.
What do these symbols represent?
Now there's a question that's been asked a few times over the centuries! ;=>

As I said, I make the ἀστέρες of 12:4 to be the spiritual followers of ὁ δράκων μέγας of 12:3. The entire context seems to suggest that to me. I am less certain about the λίθον ὡς μύλον μέγαν of 18:1. I could believe that is a physical heavenly body of some sort. At least the description and the context seems to fit with some sort of a physical entity.
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George F Somsel
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by George F Somsel » January 31st, 2016, 3:10 am

The attempt to equate those things spoken of in the Apocalypse to literal physical events or items has led to many bizarre interpretations of the book. The thing that must be kept in mind from the very beginning in trying to understand the work is that the author specifically that the divine author έσήμανεν — "he signed it" (not John, the apostle, who who long before died in Jerusalem (see the introduction to R H Charles' ICC commentary on Revelation
.
(d) The Syriac Martyrology postulates the martyrdom of John the son of Zebedee. This martyrology (411 A.D.) was drawn up at Edessa for the use of the local church. It contains the following festivals:
Dec. 27. Ἰωάννης καὶ Ἰάκωβος οἱ ἀπόστολοι ἐν Ἰεροσολύμοις.
Dec. 28. Ἐν Ῥώμῃ τῇ πόλει Παῦλος καὶ Συμεὼν Κηφᾶς.
Op cit, p. xlviii
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Note that John is said to have been martyred in Jerusalem which would place the time prior to 70 ad in keeping with Mk 10.35-40 // Mt 20.20-23.
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An attempt to understand what is said too literally neglects the character of the work as "signs." To understand the signs one cannot simply choose whatever happens to pop into one's head on reading a passage. To do such opens ones' self to any of a virtually infinite number of possibilities. It would be possible to understand the βιβλαρίδιον of 10.2 as a Hershey bar since he is commanded to eat it and that it is sweet in his mouth but upsets his stomach. The only valid equations which can be made are to passages referenced in the OT, noncanonical literature and even, in some cases, NT passages.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes » January 31st, 2016, 9:24 am

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:I could believe that is a physical heavenly body of some sort. At least the description and the context seems to fit with some sort of a physical entity.
George F Somsel wrote:The attempt to equate those things spoken of in the Apocalypse to literal physical events or items has led to many bizarre interpretations of the book.
In the language of the very visual physical description that would be read by some symbolically, would the "stars" reach the earth, make craters or end up buried?
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Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Thomas Dolhanty » January 31st, 2016, 10:34 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:In the language of the very visual physical description that would be read by some symbolically, would the "stars" reach the earth, make craters or end up buried?
If the language is taken as symbolic and metaphorical, then your question is nonsensical. It is like saying. "The political campaign is a horse race.", and then asking whether the horses' hooves left deep imprints in the track. Or like saying, "I gave it my best shot.", and then asking what calibre of shell was used. Metaphor does not permit of such analytical consideration.
George F Somsel wrote:The attempt to equate those things spoken of in the Apocalypse to literal physical events or items has led to many bizarre interpretations of the book. The thing that must be kept in mind from the very beginning in trying to understand the work is that the author specifically that the divine author έσήμανεν — "he signed it" (not John, the apostle, who who long before died in Jerusalem (see the introduction to R H Charles' ICC commentary on Revelation
Other credible and current positions could be put forward, but I think that discussion is outside the scope of this forum.
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George F Somsel
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by George F Somsel » February 1st, 2016, 3:09 am

Stephen Hughes wrote:
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In the language of the very visual physical description that would be read by some symbolically, would the "stars" reach the earth, make craters or end up buried?
.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate.
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Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes » February 1st, 2016, 4:24 am

George F Somsel wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:
.
In the language of the very visual physical description that would be read by some symbolically, would the "stars" reach the earth, make craters or end up buried?
.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate.
The language describes how things in a very physical and way. Things are described that we imagine as physically existing and actions that happen to physical things. Placing or throwing them into the earth with his tail is also something we are encouraged to imagine seeing the a's physically and happening.

Stars buried would have lost their ability to shine, those that hit with speed would destroy and those stuck into the ground would illuminate. Each has quite a different feel to it.
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George F Somsel
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by George F Somsel » February 2nd, 2016, 2:11 am

I don't think the point of the text is what happened after the stars had been thrown down to the earth. Rather, the point is that they are now on the earth. Remember, the stars were frequently conceived to be gods.
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… search for truth, hear truth,
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