Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

George F Somsel wrote:I don't think the point of the text is what happened after the stars had been thrown down to the earth. Rather, the point is that they are now on the earth. Remember, the stars were frequently conceived to be gods.
Yes. Perhaps to think of it as "down out of heaven" would be better.

In my thinking the issue for me in this text has really turned into a question of how would one translate the meaning behind the text, while still being faithful to the text. If we were to follow the thought that has been expressed here that what is written is not as important as what what is written is interpreted as, then it seems to me that, logically at least, replacing physical things with symbolic meaning (limited in some ways by the OT etc.) actually multiplies the possibilities for imaginative interpretations.

Another question is; How is reading the Greek text relevant to our understanding of this text here?
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
cwconrad
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by cwconrad »

George F Somsel wrote:I don't think the point of the text is what happened after the stars had been thrown down to the earth. Rather, the point is that they are now on the earth. Remember, the stars were frequently conceived to be gods.
A better analogy, then, would be Luke 10:18:
εἶπεν δὲ αὐτοῖς· ἐθεώρουν τὸν σατανᾶν ὡς ἀστραπὴν ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ πεσόντα.
οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Stephen Hughes wrote:How is reading the Greek text relevant to our understanding of this text here?
Perhaps to answer myself, I could say that reading a metaphor or analogy in Greek, rather than grasping what it literally means in English might be a plus. That is probably somewhat beyond my own ability in Greek, though.
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Shirley Rollinson »

Stephen Hughes wrote:
George F Somsel wrote:Stephen Hughes wrote:
.
In the language of the very visual physical description that would be read by some symbolically, would the "stars" reach the earth, make craters or end up buried?
.
I'm not sure that I understand your point. Perhaps you could elaborate.
The language describes how things in a very physical and way. Things are described that we imagine as physically existing and actions that happen to physical things. Placing or throwing them into the earth with his tail is also something we are encouraged to imagine seeing the a's physically and happening.

Stars buried would have lost their ability to shine, those that hit with speed would destroy and those stuck into the ground would illuminate. Each has quite a different feel to it.
But if we're going to get really physical with it - the "stars" would be either meteorites or stars - other suns, most of them greater than Sol. Meteorites would most likely burn up during descent, or would form an impact crater on hitting the earth. But the text says that the dragon threw down a third of the stars of heaven - that's more than a meteor shower. A third of the real "stars of heaven" would vaporize the whole solar system. So it can't be literal - it's like Cranach's picture of Jesus with a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth.
Thomas Dolhanty
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Thomas Dolhanty »

Shirley Rollinson wrote:But if we're going to get really physical with it - the "stars" would be either meteorites or stars - other suns, most of them greater than Sol. Meteorites would most likely burn up during descent, or would form an impact crater on hitting the earth. But the text says that the dragon threw down a third of the stars of heaven - that's more than a meteor shower. A third of the real "stars of heaven" would vaporize the whole solar system. So it can't be literal - it's like Cranach's picture of Jesus with a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth.
Nice!
γράφω μαθεῖν
Stephen Hughes
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Re: Rev.12:4 Buried stars or impact craters?

Post by Stephen Hughes »

Thomas Dolhanty wrote:
Shirley Rollinson wrote:But if we're going to get really physical with it - the "stars" would be either meteorites or stars - other suns, most of them greater than Sol. Meteorites would most likely burn up during descent, or would form an impact crater on hitting the earth. But the text says that the dragon threw down a third of the stars of heaven - that's more than a meteor shower. A third of the real "stars of heaven" would vaporize the whole solar system. So it can't be literal - it's like Cranach's picture of Jesus with a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth.
Nice!
This seems a little anachronistic. It is possible that the authours and their readers weren't aware of the latest scientific and technological discoveries that we are acquainted with. The concept of closer things appear bigger, and more distant things appear smaller would suggest that a star hitting the earth would be bigger than it appeared in the sky, but they didn't have our (modern) understanding of how far these things were away from the earth.
Shirley Rollinson wrote:Cranach's picture of Jesus with a two-edged sword coming out of his mouth.
It seems that Cranach's Greek teacher hadn't stressed the importance of differentiating between ἐκ and ἀπό:
Revelations 1:16 wrote:ἐκ τοῦ στόματος αὐτοῦ ῥομφαία δίστομος ὀξεῖα ἐκπορευομένη
Γελᾷ δ' ὁ μωρός, κἄν τι μὴ γέλοιον ᾖ
(Menander, Γνῶμαι μονόστιχοι 108)
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