Ἀγαπητοί, μὴ ξενίζεσθε τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ, ὡς ξένου ὑμῖν συμβαίνοντος, 1 Peter 4:12
(Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you.)
Regarding the use of the dative ὑμῖν as an indirect object in relation to the accusative πειρασμὸν: I am comparing it to the usage in of the genative ὑμῶν in relation to πειρασμὸν Galatians 4:14 -- τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου. What interests me is that the objective genative ὑμῶν could be regarded as awkward, where as the dative is smooth in 1 Peter's usage: πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν .
Could Peter be echoing and improving on the grammar in Galatians?
1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
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Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
For those who missed the earlier discussion, check out these threads:Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote:I am comparing it to the usage in of the genative ὑμῶν in relation to πειρασμὸν Galatians 4:14 -- τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.
I think Gregory is referring to things said in those threads.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
Rebardless of the previous discussion, let me observe here that the dative makes perfect sense here as an indirect object with γινομένῃ, and makes little sense as a dative of possession with πειρασμόν (which is syntactically impossible or at the least extremely difficult). The parallel mentioned above is not truly parallel.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
Hi Jonathan,Jonathan Robie wrote:For those who missed the earlier discussion, check out these threads:Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote:I am comparing it to the usage in of the genative ὑμῶν in relation to πειρασμὸν Galatians 4:14 -- τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου.
I think Gregory is referring to things said in those threads.
It is true that I am still studying the same text -- Gal 4:13-14 -- but I do not now necessarily still hold the views I expressed in those earlier threads. Indeed, in many cases I have come to hold the views of others who were guiding me. I made a fresh start to look at the text in a fresh way, that is, in all probability, to get correction on fresh misreadings.
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
Hi Barry,Barry Hofstetter wrote:... the dative makes perfect sense here as an indirect object with γινομένῃ, and makes little sense as a dative of possession with πειρασμόν (which is syntactically impossible or at the least extremely difficult). The parallel mentioned above is not truly parallel.
Thanks for your commentary.
Regarding your analysis of the grammar of 1Peter 4:12 (μὴ ξενίζεσθε τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ):
If you were to make a "wooden" translation to illustrate your point -- "the dative makes perfect sense here as an indirect object with γινομένῃ" -- what would that translation look like?
Would something like this suit? "...do not be surprised at the fire among you coming as a trial to you."
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
Gal. 4:14 καὶ τὸν πειρασμὸν ὑμῶν ἐν τῇ σαρκί μου οὐκ ἐξουθενήσατε οὐδὲ ἐξεπτύσατε, ἀλλὰ ὡς ἄγγελον θεοῦ ἐδέξασθέ με, ὡς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν.
1Pet. 4:12 Ἀγαπητοί, μὴ ξενίζεσθε τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ ὡς ξένου ὑμῖν συμβαίνοντος,
2Pet. 2:9 οἶδεν κύριος εὐσεβεῖς ἐκ πειρασμοῦ ῥύεσθαι, ἀδίκους δὲ εἰς ἡμέραν κρίσεως κολαζομένους τηρεῖν,
Aside from sharing the word πειρασμὸν in accusative, the syntax isn’t very similar. The notion that the author of 1Pet was familiar with Paul’s letter to the Galatians struck me as interesting so I looked into it a little. Without a proper library on hand, my tentative result was negative. My limited sources suggest some sort of relationship between 1Pet and Romans, perhaps Ephesians but not Galatians. Enough of that, its off topic for b-greek.
On the “awkward” syntax in Galatians; Examples of awkward syntax in Paul are not difficult to find.
1Pet. 4:12 Ἀγαπητοί, μὴ ξενίζεσθε τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ ὡς ξένου ὑμῖν συμβαίνοντος,
2Pet. 2:9 οἶδεν κύριος εὐσεβεῖς ἐκ πειρασμοῦ ῥύεσθαι, ἀδίκους δὲ εἰς ἡμέραν κρίσεως κολαζομένους τηρεῖν,
Aside from sharing the word πειρασμὸν in accusative, the syntax isn’t very similar. The notion that the author of 1Pet was familiar with Paul’s letter to the Galatians struck me as interesting so I looked into it a little. Without a proper library on hand, my tentative result was negative. My limited sources suggest some sort of relationship between 1Pet and Romans, perhaps Ephesians but not Galatians. Enough of that, its off topic for b-greek.
On the “awkward” syntax in Galatians; Examples of awkward syntax in Paul are not difficult to find.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: 1 Peter 4:12 πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ
We are not so much concerned with translation on B-Greek as properly understanding how the Greek works. There are any number of published translations which accurately capture the force of the Greek, among them the ESV and NASB. I would, BTW, read πρός of purpose. "As" is a bit to ambiguous here.Gregory Hartzler-Miller wrote:
Hi Barry,
Thanks for your commentary.
Regarding your analysis of the grammar of 1Peter 4:12 (μὴ ξενίζεσθε τῇ ἐν ὑμῖν πυρώσει πρὸς πειρασμὸν ὑμῖν γινομένῃ):
If you were to make a "wooden" translation to illustrate your point -- "the dative makes perfect sense here as an indirect object with γινομένῃ" -- what would that translation look like?
Would something like this suit? "...do not be surprised at the fire among you coming as a trial to you."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.