Errors In Revelation?

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Barry Hofstetter
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Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 6:08 pm

Starting a new discussion on this topic.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 6:17 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 4:50 am
Dear Mike, reading thru your thesis I stumbled on that claim: "The Apocalypse of John, written by a non-native speaker provides more opportunity for finding ungrammatical clauses than most texts".
Having studied the Greek text of Revelation for some years I have to say, that your sentence is more than false. Sorry to say that. We could open a new threat on that, but I dont know if it is my duty to teach you otherwise, if your mind is already set, that John could not do the Greek. I know he did. There is no single verse, not to be explained, no verse is somehow ungrammatical, so I wont read your paper any longer, as this is too much for me. My paper on the Greek text of Revelation will soon appear, in German, but I claim exactly the opposite. Yours Peter P.S. I just decided not to debate with you an issue where fundamental differences are between us both and I see no sense as common ground is not to be expected - I could send you a verse by verse commentary on each Greek Verse of Rev. soon (in German, a pre pup if you will as well), I am about to end the project after some years of study (much research with TLG for almost each verse). So I dont debate with you on that. That ends my comment on your thesis.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 6:27 pm

So it will be interesting to see how solecisms such as this are treated in Peter's research:

καὶ ἔβαλεν ὁ ἄγγελος τὸ δρέπανον αὐτοῦ εἰς τὴν γῆν καὶ ἐτρύγησεν τὴν ἄμπελον τῆς γῆς καὶ ἔβαλεν εἰς τὴν ληνὸν τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τὸν μέγαν.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 7th, 2017, 7:03 pm

Ok, first a short apology, I was a bit too hard in my formulation on Mike, I feel sorry. Of course his statement on the grammar of Rev. is false, but nothing is said about the rest or the other content. Ok, Mike? If I get a list of "solecisms" - am I free to copy German as answers ? If not, then it gets a bit longer, and as time permits, I paraphrase or translate, what is already present. Then the results of the new TuT volume on the Greek text is also reflected - if one does not have it, I can scan in results, or are textual matters banned on this list? Would be pitty, especially after the brand new TuT has appeared.
So I want to join in. Is that ok for all?

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1002
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 7:16 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 7:03 pm
Ok, first a short apology, I was a bit too hard in my formulation on Mike, I feel sorry. Of course his statement on the grammar of Rev. is false, but nothing is said about the rest or the other content. Ok, Mike? If I get a list of "solecisms" - am I free to copy German as answers ? If not, then it gets a bit longer, and as time permits, I paraphrase or translate, what is already present. Then the results of the new TuT volume on the Greek text is also reflected - if one does not have it, I can scan in results, or are textual matters banned on this list? Would be pitty, especially after the brand new TuT has appeared.
So I want to join in. Is that ok for all?
Please submit posts in English. Text critical issues are okay as long as they contribute to our understanding of the grammar involved.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 7th, 2017, 10:04 pm

Ok, then it takes a bit longer for me (I could have copied my German Original at once), but ok: Seeing in Rev. 14,19 an ungrammatical blunder by John can be traced back to simple copy and past false claims of folks with a lack of understanding of Greek Grammar of these kind of Nouns (a combination of the fem. Article with a mask. Noun) as Nouns like these have: ἡ ἄβυσσος, βίβλος, ὁδός, εἴσοδος, ψῆφος, πάροδος, διέξοδος, ῥάμνος, κιβωτός, ἔρημος, περίχωρος, ἄμμος, δοκός, περίοικος, παρθένος, ῥάβδος, ῥάμνος, σορός, κόπρος, βύσσος, ἄφεδρος, ὀρεινός, ἄμπελος, τρίβος, νόσος, νῆσος, διάλεκτος, πλίνθος, κάμινος, δρόσος, παράλιος, συκάμινος, Πάφος, Γαλατικός, Εφεσος, Ἆσσος, Δαμασκός, Ἑλληνικός

ἡ ληνός in our Verse is used in LXX and Greek Lit. regularly, e.g. Deuteronomium 15.14 (" ἀπὸ τῆς ληνοῦ"): Article fem. Noun mask. But that is not the problem you seem to suggest.

Then you might suggest that the modifying adjective at the end of the phrase in the maskuline gender is ungrammatical (in combination with the feminine article ἡ, I assume, could falsly considered to be wrong, but the opposite is true, these claims are wrong) , which shows a lack of understanding of Greek Grammar, sorry to say, of folks brining that into play. Please check (or let such folks do so) such kind of Nouns when they are combined with adjectives. They are constructed in the masculine gender and no feminines: Isaiah 63.2: πατητοῦ ληνοῦ (same lexeme!); 1Samuel 6.12 ἐν τρίβῳ ἑνὶ; Letter of Jeramiah 1.54 δοκοὶ μέσοι; Ezechiel 16.15 πάντα πάροδον; Ezechiel 16.25 παντὶ παρόδῳ; Deuteronomium 1.7 πάντας τοὺς περιοίκους; Proverbs 3.17 πάντες οἱ τρίβοι.

So the error is not at the side of John but of those not having basics of Greek. My treatment is in German, but I hope the examples are clear. Agreed or doubts? Yours Peter

Barry Hofstetter
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Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 7th, 2017, 11:32 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 7th, 2017, 10:04 pm
Ok, then it takes a bit longer for me (I could have copied my German Original at once), but ok: Seeing in Rev. 14,19 an ungrammatical blunder by John can be traced back to simple copy and past false claims of folks with a lack of understanding of Greek Grammar of these kind of Nouns (a combination of the fem. Article with a mask. Noun) as Nouns like these have: ἡ ἄβυσσος, βίβλος, ὁδός, εἴσοδος, ψῆφος, πάροδος, διέξοδος, ῥάμνος, κιβωτός, ἔρημος, περίχωρος, ἄμμος, δοκός, περίοικος, παρθένος, ῥάβδος, ῥάμνος, σορός, κόπρος, βύσσος, ἄφεδρος, ὀρεινός, ἄμπελος, τρίβος, νόσος, νῆσος, διάλεκτος, πλίνθος, κάμινος, δρόσος, παράλιος, συκάμινος, Πάφος, Γαλατικός, Εφεσος, Ἆσσος, Δαμασκός, Ἑλληνικός

ἡ ληνός in our Verse is used in LXX and Greek Lit. regularly, e.g. Deuteronomium 15.14 (" ἀπὸ τῆς ληνοῦ"): Article fem. Noun mask. But that is not the problem you seem to suggest.

Then you might suggest that the modifying adjective at the end of the phrase in the maskuline gender is ungrammatical (in combination with the feminine article ἡ, I assume, could falsly considered to be wrong, but the opposite is true, these claims are wrong) , which shows a lack of understanding of Greek Grammar, sorry to say, of folks brining that into play. Please check (or let such folks do so) such kind of Nouns when they are combined with adjectives. They are constructed in the masculine gender and no feminines: Isaiah 63.2: πατητοῦ ληνοῦ (same lexeme!); 1Samuel 6.12 ἐν τρίβῳ ἑνὶ; Letter of Jeramiah 1.54 δοκοὶ μέσοι; Ezechiel 16.15 πάντα πάροδον; Ezechiel 16.25 παντὶ παρόδῳ; Deuteronomium 1.7 πάντας τοὺς περιοίκους; Proverbs 3.17 πάντες οἱ τρίβοι.

So the error is not at the side of John but of those not having basics of Greek. My treatment is in German, but I hope the examples are clear. Agreed or doubts? Yours Peter
I am afraid your response shows us some misunderstanding on your part. The nouns you have listed are feminine nouns of the 2nd declension. Yes, they normally take a feminine article and are modified by feminine adjectives (that's the main reason we know that they are feminine nouns). The problem here is not τὴν ληνόν. That's normal and expected. The problem is that it's modified by a masculine adjective in the attributive position, τὴν ληνὸν τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τὸν μέγαν. Do you care to address that issue?
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 8th, 2017, 3:50 am

Shaking head: Exactly that is addressed in my statement, exactly that and nothing else (check the examples above and you will see only maskuline adjectives modifying these kind of nouns and no feminines, exactly as John did in Rev.), end of debate on my side. I think a waste of time - and so we could go thru all the others claims John would not know the Greek.
>I am afraid your response shows us
Are you the whole band or group of all readers or are you using the plural of majesty? Dont understand that usage, you being a single person, writing about "us". Not impressing me at least.

Barry Hofstetter
Posts: 1002
Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 8th, 2017, 8:07 am

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 3:50 am
Shaking head: Exactly that is addressed in my statement, exactly that and nothing else (check the examples above and you will see only maskuline adjectives modifying these kind of nouns and no feminines, exactly as John did in Rev.), end of debate on my side. I think a waste of time - and so we could go thru all the others claims John would not know the Greek.
>I am afraid your response shows us
Are you the whole band or group of all readers or are you using the plural of majesty? Dont understand that usage, you being a single person, writing about "us". Not impressing me at least.
Well, you listed feminine nouns of the second declension, and you said:

a combination of the fem. Article with a mask. Noun...

ἡ ληνός in our Verse is used in LXX and Greek Lit. regularly, e.g. Deuteronomium 15.14 (" ἀπὸ τῆς ληνοῦ"): Article fem. Noun mask. But that is not the problem you seem to suggest.
You seem to be saying that masculine nouns are used with feminine articles, and I was pointing out that these were feminine nouns. Now, part of my response got cut when I submitted it, for some odd reason. You did indeed address the issue of the masculine adjective:
Then you might suggest that the modifying adjective at the end of the phrase in the maskuline gender is ungrammatical (in combination with the feminine article ἡ, I assume, could falsly considered to be wrong, but the opposite is true, these claims are wrong) , which shows a lack of understanding of Greek Grammar, sorry to say, of folks brining that into play. Please check (or let such folks do so) such kind of Nouns when they are combined with adjectives. They are constructed in the masculine gender and no feminines: Isaiah 63.2: πατητοῦ ληνοῦ (same lexeme!); 1Samuel 6.12 ἐν τρίβῳ ἑνὶ; Letter of Jeramiah 1.54 δοκοὶ μέσοι; Ezechiel 16.15 πάντα πάροδον; Ezechiel 16.25 παντὶ παρόδῳ; Deuteronomium 1.7 πάντας τοὺς περιοίκους; Proverbs 3.17 πάντες οἱ τρίβοι.
Let's look at the examples:

Isa 63:2 διὰ τί σου ἐρυθρὰ τὰ ἱμάτια, καὶ τὰ ἐνδύματά σου ὡς ἀπὸ πατητοῦ ληνοῦ;

You are looking at this text and assuming that a feminine noun is being used with a masculine adjective, but two other explanations are more likely, 1) the translator simply views ληνός as a masculine noun, or 2) he views πατητός as a two-termination adjective. This verse is not unqualified support that Greek authors normally use masculine adjectives to modify feminine second declension nouns. Notice that there is no definite article.

1 Sam 6:12 ἐν τρίβῳ ἐνὶ ἐπορεύοντο καὶ ἐκοπίων...

Again, I think the more likely explanation is that the translator views τρίβος here as a masculine noun. Notice here also there is no definite article.

Ep.Jer 1:54 αὐτοὶ δὲ ὥσπερ δοκοὶ μέσοι κατακαυθήσονται...

Either the translator views the noun as masculine, or it masculine by attraction to the subject. Again, no definite article.

Eze 16:15 ἐπὶ πάντα πάροδον...

Same issue, no qualifying article and the translator is most likely viewing the noun as masculine.

Deut 1:7 εἰσπορεύεσθε εἰς ὄρος Ἀμορραίων καὶ πρὸς πάντας τοὺς περιοίκους Ἀραβά...

τοὺς περιοίκους is masculine and is treated as such consistently, οἱ περίοικοι, "the neighbors."

Prov 3:17, αἱ ὁδοὶ αὐτῆς ὁδοὶ καλαί, καὶ πάντες οἱ τρίβοι αὐτῆς ἐν εἰρήνῃ·

The translator clearly sees the noun as masculine, as shown by his inclusion of the masculine article.

Now, I think the it's clear from comparing these is not that it is acceptable to use a masculine modifier for a feminine noun, but that the translators in those instances see the nouns as masculine. Note that all our examples are from the LXX. Similar gender diversity :lol: with these second declension feminines is sometimes seen in the papyri. You do not see it in the NT nor in "published" authors in ancient times. Now, the important point is that the syntax is not parallel to Rev 14:19, which includes the feminine article with the noun and then a masculine article and adjective modifying that noun, τὴν ληνὸν τοῦ θυμοῦ τοῦ θεοῦ τὸν μέγαν. Are you clear now on the actual issue? And let me point out that using other solecisms to say that one solecism is not a solecism is hardly a valid methodology.

Oh, and let me point out that accusing people who have spent decades reading and studying Greek as well as as having thorough immersion in the text of Revelation of not knowing basic Greek is not going to be a fruitful direction. It is precisely because such people know Greek and know it very well that they make the claims that they do.

I also meant to point out that "us" in my response means "we who are reading this exchange."
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
Posts: 199
Joined: June 3rd, 2011, 10:45 am

Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 8th, 2017, 8:30 am

We should agree that we disagree, at least I disagree with your last statement. These examples are clear and parallels to Rev. - so the claim of solecim is false, as there are no examples of this kind of nouns being modified by feminine adjectives (only as in Rev, masculine) and you could not falsify that, so the claim is to be maintained: no blunder at John, he did it in accordance with the usage of these kind of nouns, which is clearly paralled in some examples, even if you do not like them, as it seems, but you could not talk them away, as we Germans say and your exlanantion for it - at least I cant see it to be correct. So I suggest, as the case is settled (at least for me) and I dont expect any more rationale - we could come to another example or we conclude that I found no blunder in the Rev., no solecism no ungrammatical issues, if folks do so, they have no clue in Greek Grammar (dangerous half knowledge) or dont trust the text or the one behind it or whatever reasons they might have. What do you suggest? Please no more on this - better another, ok?
>And let me point out that using other solecisms to say that one solecism is not a solecism is hardly a valid >methodology.
Solecism? What are you talking about - please provide one counter example. These are parallels and not a bunch of other solecisms, shaking head again.
Last edited by Peter Streitenberger on November 8th, 2017, 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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