Errors In Revelation?

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Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 8th, 2017, 8:54 pm

Very nice, Barry, thank you! Thanks for the further things to consider. As Christian I should sometimes direct a prayer towards above before submitting anything. Feel free to address what you want to, I am learning.

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 8th, 2017, 10:22 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 7:52 pm
Dear Randall, Barry and the rest of the band,

thanks! I have to agree with your interpretation and it made me think over the whole issue and I hope to be able to think more clearly now.

To add a further example in Flavius, unfortunately not completely clear to decide in Josephus is the following:

Wars of the Jews 3:214 ὁ (note: ὁ refers to ὁ κριός in the sentence before) δ᾽ ἐστὶν ὑπερμεγέθης δοκὸς ἱστῷ νηὸς παραπλήσιος ἐστόμωται δὲ παχεῖ σιδήρῳ κατ᾽ ἄκρον εἰς κριοῦ προτομήν ἀφ᾽ οὗ καὶ καλεῖται τετυπωμένῳ
This battering ram is a vast beam of wood like the mast of a ship; its forepart is armed with a thick piece of iron at the head of it, which is so carved as to be like the head of a ram, from which its name is taken.

The η δοκὸς modifying adjective is ὑπερμεγέθης. In all instances of the LXX and the NT this word is used with the feminine article and Josephus himself does so: τὰς δοκοὺς in Antiquities of the Jews 8:68. So this word fits the criteria of the word John used and belongs into that group of nouns.

Then ὑπερμεγέθης is at least in my database of Bibleworks coded as "annmsn", so counted as masculine (a=adjective, n=normal, n=nominative, m=masculine.....). If they count it as masculine I do as well - trusting their coding competence, :-) - and the Josephus data, even if not 100% clear as the LXX examples. Not completely convincing this example, granted.

Here another writer, Philo, doing much the same as John in Rev.:

Quaestiones in Genesim (fragment. 2:13 ἵνα, θεασάμενοι τὴν κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον γῆς ἕνεκα τοῦ καιροῦ γενομένην καὶ τὰ τῶν ζῴων γένη ταμιεύουσαν ὧν ἔφερεν ἡ γῆ τὰ κατὰ μέρος εἴδη,
in order that when they see the ark placed in front of them as a sort of type, made with respect to the then present time

Here is what I was after: τὴν κιβωτὸν in combination with the masculine ἀντίμιμον.

Then, same writer, same lexeme as Flavius but used in the Johns way with an masculine modifier:
De opificio mundi 1:69
καὶ τέχναις καὶ ἐπιστήμαις πολυσχιδεῖς ἀνατέμνων ὁδοὺς λεωφόρους ἁπάσας διὰ γῆς ἔρχεται καὶ θαλάττης τὰ ἐν ἑκατέρᾳ φύσει διερευνώμενος;
and making for itself by art and science all sorts of roads leading in divers directions, and all plain; it traverses land and sea, investigating everything which is contained in either element.
With πολυσχιδεῖς counted as masculine in my database of BW.

De vita Mosis 1:170
ἐχθροὶ δ᾽ ἀντικρύ, τὰ δὲ παρ᾽ ἑκάτερα βαθεῖα καὶ ἀτριβὴς ἐρήμη σφαδᾴζοντες καὶ τῷ μεγέθει τῶν κακῶν ἀπειρηκότες, οἷα παρὰ τοιαύτας φιλεῖ συμφοράς, τὸν ἄρχοντα ᾐτιῶντο φάσκοντες·
and not being able to escape, for behind was the sea, and in front was the enemy, and on each side a vast and pathless wilderness, reviled against Moses, and, being dismayed at the magnitude of the evils that threatened them, began, as is very common in such calamities, to blame their governors, and said:
While ἀτριβὴς is coded "annmsn", as masculine, at least in my database.
This is where an actual knowledge of the language trumps the use of electronic tools. Adjectives ending in -ης have one set of endings for the masculine and feminine, and a slightly different set for the neuter. The -ης ending is therefore used for both the masculine and the feminine, which usage to be identified by context. Similarly with ἀντιμίμος. This is a two-termination adjective, again with one set of endings for the masculine and feminine, and another set for the neuter (differing only in the neuter nominative and accusative forms, same with the -ης adjectives). For such adjectives, -ος can be either masculine or feminine. These examples therefore do not give any support for your assertions.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

RandallButh
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by RandallButh » November 9th, 2017, 1:00 am

Peter,

You will need to check your Greek morphology paradigms rather than use Bibleworks, or another computer program, in order to accurately carry on the discussion. Computer programs often take shortcuts that do not reflect the real language.

Cases in point:

adjectives that end in -ης/-ες typically do not distinguish masculine from feminine, only neuter. So a computer program that calls such an adjective 'masculine' may be programmed to ignore feminine for that word, even when used as a feminine in a feminine context.

Likewise, adjectives that are formed from compounds, joining two roots, are typically binary, having only neuter and "non-neuter, i.e., masculine+feminine." Such adjectives do not specify the gender when either masculine or feminine. E.g. εὔ–κοπος (εὔ–κοπος) εὔ–κοπον "easy". Thus: ἡ εὔκοπος ὁδὀς.
This reminds me of Matt 7:13:
Εἰσέλθατε διὰ τῆς στενῆς πύλης·
ὅτι πλατεῖα ἡ πύλη
καὶ εὐρύχωρος ἡ ὁδὸς ἡ ἀπάγουσα εἰς τὴν ἀπώλειαν καὶ πολλοί εἰσιν οἱ εἰσερχόμενοι δι᾿ αὐτῆς·

So examples like ὑπερμεγέθης δοκὸς are still feminine in Greek and the computer programs are misleading.
The same is true for τὴν κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον. Fully feminine.

Ken M. Penner
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Ken M. Penner » November 9th, 2017, 1:37 pm

Peter Streitenberger wrote:
November 8th, 2017, 7:52 pm
Wars of the Jews 3:214 ὁ (note: ὁ refers to ὁ κριός in the sentence before) δ᾽ ἐστὶν ὑπερμεγέθης δοκὸς ἱστῷ νηὸς παραπλήσιος ἐστόμωται δὲ παχεῖ σιδήρῳ κατ᾽ ἄκρον εἰς κριοῦ προτομήν ἀφ᾽ οὗ καὶ καλεῖται τετυπωμένῳ
...
Then ὑπερμεγέθης is at least in my database of Bibleworks coded as "annmsn", so counted as masculine (a=adjective, n=normal, n=nominative, m=masculine.....). If they count it as masculine I do as well - trusting their coding competence, :-) - and the Josephus data, even if not 100% clear as the LXX examples.
While I understand we would like to be able to trust the coding competence of morphological taggers for bible software, I can assure you that the taggers are human and can make mistakes. I say this as the person responsible for much of the morphological tagging of the Josephus texts for Logos Bible Software. I've made some embarrassing mistakes.
For what it's worth, the Logos version says ὑπερμεγέθης is feminine here.
Ken M. Penner
St. Francis Xavier University

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Barry Hofstetter » November 9th, 2017, 1:42 pm

Ken M. Penner wrote:
November 9th, 2017, 1:37 pm
While I understand we would like to be able to trust the coding competence of morphological taggers for bible software, I can assure you that the taggers are human and can make mistakes. I say this as the person responsible for much of the morphological tagging of the Josephus texts for Logos Bible Software. I've made some embarrassing mistakes.
For what it's worth, the Logos version says ὑπερμεγέθης is feminine here.
I've grown quite fond of Logos despite it's not always intuitive ways of doing things. But more than ever this reminds us of the truth of the words of the prophet Reagan, "Trust, but verify..." :lol:

And to emphasize, knowing the language thoroughly results in making the best use of all tools, electronic and otherwise.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
ἐγὼ δὲ διδάσκω τε καὶ γράφω ἵνα τὰ ἀξιώτερα μανθάνω

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 10th, 2017, 7:06 am

Ken, Randall and all interested,
thanks, of course I know this, I know this, and the interpretation of the database is an interpretation and the morphology of that cases is not clear, as feminine and mas. are identical (as far as I recall, not having read what I wrote, I should have pointed towards that - I mean that is not clear), but I wanted to provide at least some spurious cases, where one can decide this or that way. But you are all right, but not able to prove the other case as well - so a 50:50 decision, I completely trust without a Milligramm of doubt only the BW code, only because it is supporting my argument :-) :-). BW is best - I always knew. (Of course I run Logos as well - but is it really trustworthy doing such a blunder :-).
P.

Peter Streitenberger
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Peter Streitenberger » November 10th, 2017, 7:15 am

Randall,
>The same is true for τὴν κιβωτὸν ἀντίμιμον. Fully feminine.
Are you sure on that one? Could be but I`m not, have to check the class of this adjective, but which book I can consult, at first glance - is it irregular - and in reality feminine? Not sure, at least I. Why this? P.

After a first check: a two ender - but "fully feminine" ? No, as the mas. has the same ending, right? So spurious - 50:50. I included it as example, tagged (of course correctly :-), as masculine), BibleWorks rules!

RandallButh
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by RandallButh » November 10th, 2017, 12:16 pm

Peter- your 50-50 comment is mthodologically misleading.
Eg. If a word in unambiguous contexts is always feminine, then an occurrence with an underdifferentiated adjective does not suddenly become a 50-50 choice.

I found a similar methodological problem with EBRAISTI a few years ago. NT scholars would say that the word meant Aramaic, but all alleged examples were in ambiguous contexts. In clear contexts the word only meant Hebrew. The NT field became a shallow echo chamber of sloppy incorrect thinking. (FTR: ἑβραιστί only means Hebrew, yes, even with nouns cited in Greek with alpha endings. See the article Buth-Pierce "EBRAISTI..." for details.)
.

Jonathan Robie
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 10th, 2017, 12:46 pm

No matter how good the tagging is in a Bible software package, most only provide one of the possible alternatives. That's unfortunate, it would be so much better for people learning the language to constantly be confronted with all of the morphological possibilities when they look at a form - of course, the syntax will disambiguate in most cases, but it's much better to get into the mindset that there is an ambiguity that needs to be resolved by the syntax.

So I think the most helpful approach to discussing any of these examples that are not obvious is to (1) note the morphological possibilities, then (2) identify the syntactic constraints that eliminate possibilities. And sometimes, there may be more than one reading of the sentence, of course, so more than one morphological interpretation is possible.

I assume everyone in this thread knows that ... but sometimes a reminder is helpful.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: Errors In Revelation?

Post by Jonathan Robie » November 10th, 2017, 1:02 pm

There may be a subtext worth addressing here. For some people, the idea that the Revelation might contain Greek obviously written by someone who did not speak it as a native language may imply there is something wrong with it.

Think about that a little. Do you really want to dismiss everything written by a foreigner as less valuable? Of course not. On the other hand, if you were trying to compile examples of English to understand how the language is used by native speakers, you would probably want to flag examples of things written by foreigners as less authoritative for understanding the language.
ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

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