Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

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Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 640
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 17th, 2017, 7:35 pm

I was looking through the the Apocalypse of John comparing SBLGNT to THGNT and ran across a syntax variant. R-P & THGNT[1] omit the second μου in ὁ μάρτυς μου ὁ πιστός μου.
NA27 Rev. 2:13 οἶδα ποῦ κατοικεῖς, ὅπου ὁ θρόνος τοῦ σατανᾶ, καὶ κρατεῖς τὸ ὄνομά μου καὶ οὐκ ἠρνήσω τὴν πίστιν μου καὶ ἐν ταῖς ἡμέραις Ἀντιπᾶς ὁ μάρτυς μου ὁ πιστός μου, ὃς ἀπεκτάνθη παρ᾿ ὑμῖν, ὅπου ὁ σατανᾶς κατοικεῖ.

STEP Bibile (THGNT)
Rev 2:13 οιδα που κατοικεις, οπου ο θρονος του σατανα, και κρατεις το ονομα μου και ουκ ηρνησω την πιστιν μου και εν ταις ημεραις Αντιπας ο μαρτυς μου ο πιστος, ος απεκτανθη παρ᾽ υμιν οπου ο σατανας κατοικει.

(SBLG)
Rev 2:13 Οιδα που κατοικεις, οπου ο θρονος του Σατανα, και κρατεις το ονομα μου, και ουκ ηρνησω την πιστιν μου και εν ταις ημεραις Αντιπας, ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος μου, ος απεκτανθη παρ᾽ υμιν, οπου ο Σατανας κατοικει.

• μου WH Treg NIV ] – RP
Looking for this in the GNT and Greek OT, found one in second Peter. Note the textual variance.
NA27 2Pet. 1:17 λαβὼν γὰρ παρὰ θεοῦ πατρὸς τιμὴν καὶ δόξαν φωνῆς ἐνεχθείσης αὐτῷ τοιᾶσδε ὑπὸ τῆς μεγαλοπρεποῦς δόξης· ὁ υἱός μου ὁ ἀγαπητός μου οὗτός ἐστιν εἰς ὃν ἐγὼ εὐδόκησα,


2Pet 1:17
(THGNT)λαβων γαρ παρα θεου πατρος τιμην και δοξαν φωνης ενεχθεισης αυτω τοιασδε υπο της μεγαλοπρεπους δοξης· ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος, εις ον εγω ευδοκησα.

(SBLG)λαβων γαρ παρα θεου πατρος τιμην και δοξαν φωνης ενεχθεισης αυτω τοιασδε υπο της μεγαλοπρεπους δοξης· Ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος μου ουτος εστιν , εις ον εγω ευδοκησα—
(SBLGNTApp)

Ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος μου ουτος εστιν WH NIV] ουτος εστιν ο υιος μου ο αγαπητος Treg RP
Postscript: I compared the first seven chapters one versus at a time reading them in the Step Bible. I found about one variant per chapter between SBLGNT and THGNT.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

S Walch
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Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by S Walch » November 18th, 2017, 6:15 am

Hi Stirling,

You may want to read the following by Raija Sollamo: Repetition of the Possessive Pronouns in the Septuagint

Essentially, Raija showed that in normal idiomatic Greek writing, the possessive pronoun would either be omitted (as the relation between the subject/object and the possessor was deduced based on context), or would only appear once in the clause. It's position in the clause could be anywhere, though most commonly before the subject.

In translational Greek however, especially that of the Septuagint, the writers would nearly always follow the Hebrew/Semitic authors repetition of the possessive pronoun, with very few cases where idiomatic Greek would prevail. The Psalms especially are an example of slavish Greek translation, rarely omitting a repetitive possessive pronoun.

Though mainly applying it to lists of coordinating items (my eyes and my feet etc., etc.), I would expect it to apply in other cases as well.

As such, I believe the textual variants you have above are examples in the NT where scribes have sought to 'smooth' the translational Greek syntax into a more idiomatic Greek one, in this case the omission of the second possessive pronoun in a clause.

This should come into play when textual variants are being decided, IMHO. A Greek scribe would not likely insert an extra possessive pronoun, but rather omit it.

What does THGNT have at John 2:12? There we have a textual variant that either has two, or three uses of the possessive pronoun αὐτοῦ:

Μετὰ τοῦτο κατέβη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ αὐτὸς καὶ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ [αὐτοῦ]* καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐκεῖ ἔμειναν οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας.

*
incl: P66c A (❦ K, Ws) Θ f 1.13 33 m lat sy
omit: P66*.75 B Ψ 0162. (579) pc c

Interestingly, P66 has the insertion of the third possessive pronoun. Good evidence that a 2nd exemplar was being used?

Idiomatic Greek would either have none or just the one. One of the few places in GoJ where a Hebraism made it through :)

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 640
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 18th, 2017, 1:44 pm

Hello S Walch,
S Walch wrote:
November 18th, 2017, 6:15 am
You may want to read the following by Raija Sollamo: Repetition of the Possessive Pronouns in the Septuagint
I seem to recall reading that a while back and some shorter treatments of the same subject.
Essentially, Raija showed that in normal idiomatic Greek writing, the possessive pronoun would either be omitted (as the relation between the subject/object and the possessor was deduced based on context), or would only appear once in the clause. It's position in the clause could be anywhere, though most commonly before the subject.

In translational Greek however, especially that of the Septuagint, the writers would nearly always follow the Hebrew/Semitic authors repetition of the possessive pronoun, with very few cases where idiomatic Greek would prevail. The Psalms especially are an example of slavish Greek translation, rarely omitting a repetitive possessive pronoun.

Though mainly applying it to lists of coordinating items (my eyes and my feet etc., etc.), I would expect it to apply in other cases as well.

As such, I believe the textual variants you have above are examples in the NT where scribes have sought to 'smooth' the translational Greek syntax into a more idiomatic Greek one, in this case the omission of the second possessive pronoun in a clause.

This should come into play when textual variants are being decided, IMHO. A Greek scribe would not likely insert an extra possessive pronoun, but rather omit it.
A good analysis of that issue, thank you.

I was searching for a somewhat different pattern [art] noun possesive pn [art] adj possesive pn (agreement case number) **this isn't precise, I using Construct panes in Accord.
What does THGNT have at John 2:12? There we have a textual variant that either has two, or three uses of the possessive pronoun αὐτοῦ:
The THGNT is up on the STEP Bible, somewhat hidden and hard to find. It is in ancient bibles menu at bottom under "other" and the apparatus is not currently available. David Instone-Brewer told me the apparatus wasn't supposed to be there but didn't tell me why. The SBLGNT apparatus covers similar territory.
John 2:12
(THGNT)Μετὰ τοῦτο κατέβη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ αὐτὸς καὶ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐκεῖ ἔμειναν οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας.
(SBLG)Μετὰ τοῦτο κατέβη εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ αὐτὸς καὶ ἡ μήτηρ αὐτοῦ καὶ οἱ ἀδελφοὶ καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἐκεῖ ἔμειναν οὐ πολλὰς ἡμέρας.

(SBLGNTApp)

ἀδελφοὶ WH Treg ] + αὐτοῦ NIV RP
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Tony Pope
Posts: 102
Joined: July 14th, 2011, 6:20 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Tony Pope » November 21st, 2017, 4:01 am

Stirling Bartholomew wrote:
November 18th, 2017, 1:44 pm

The THGNT is up on the STEP Bible, somewhat hidden and hard to find. It is in ancient bibles menu at bottom under "other" and the apparatus is not currently available. David Instone-Brewer told me the apparatus wasn't supposed to be there but didn't tell me why. The SBLGNT apparatus covers similar territory.
I looked for THGNT with my browser but found no "Other" under Ancient Bibles. https://stepweb.atlassian.net/wiki/spac ... e+Versions

According to the THGNT website, the digital edition is not yet available.
https://www.thegreeknewtestament.com/pr ... leditions/

S Walch
Posts: 125
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by S Walch » November 21st, 2017, 5:37 am

Try looking under Translations in 280 Languages and growing.... :)

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 640
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 21st, 2017, 10:29 am

Tony Pope wrote:
November 21st, 2017, 4:01 am
I looked for THGNT with my browser but found no "Other" under Ancient Bibles. https://stepweb.atlassian.net/wiki/spac ... e+Versions

According to the THGNT website, the digital edition is not yet available.
https://www.thegreeknewtestament.com/pr ... leditions/
[/quote]

Start here: https://www.stepbible.org/, click in the white space of the search box at the top of the window, click "pick a bible or commentary" click "ancient" scroll down, it is hidden at the bottom, under "other resources".

Much easier: Start to type THGNT in the search box and it will pop up as an option. This wasn't working several days ago.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

Tony Pope
Posts: 102
Joined: July 14th, 2011, 6:20 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Tony Pope » November 22nd, 2017, 3:31 am

Thanks very much.

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 640
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 22nd, 2017, 8:50 pm

Tony Pope wrote:
November 22nd, 2017, 3:31 am
Thanks very much.
I finished comparing SBLGNT with THGNT in the Apocalypse of John and threw together a quick PDF that might be useful for someone interested in this sort of thing. Acrobat reader will complain about it when you open it but you should be able to read it. The variation units are bolded. The total number of variation units came to about 40. Most of them are exceedingly trivial. You will notice that, with a few exceptions, the variations are reported in the SBLGNT apparatus.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/cjimsfa1y1x1p ... N.pdf?dl=0
C. Stirling Bartholomew

S Walch
Posts: 125
Joined: June 13th, 2011, 4:27 pm
Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by S Walch » November 23rd, 2017, 6:33 am

Good quick rundown there, Stirling. Just a few quick mistakes for you to rectify:

Rev 10:1: you've not bolded the definite articles before κεφαλὴν/ς
Rev 11:3: In SBLG you've bolded προφητεύσουσιν instead of περιβεβλημένοι.
Rev 12:8: SBLG seems to have φιλαδελφιαν instead of ουρανω?

Plus yes, quite trivial differences (think most we the inclusion/omission of the definite article).

Stirling Bartholomew
Posts: 640
Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm

Re: Rev 2:13 ο μαρτυς μου, ο πιστος [μου]?

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » November 23rd, 2017, 11:53 am

S Walch wrote:
November 23rd, 2017, 6:33 am
Good quick rundown there, Stirling. Just a few quick mistakes for you to rectify:

Rev 10:1: you've not bolded the definite articles before κεφαλὴν/ς
Rev 11:3: In SBLG you've bolded προφητεύσουσιν instead of περιβεβλημένοι.
Rev 12:8: SBLG seems to have φιλαδελφιαν instead of ουρανω?

Plus yes, quite trivial differences (think most we the inclusion/omission of the definite article).
Thank you!

Now fixed. Good probability I overlooked something else. You get punchy after working on this for several hours. In 2014 I did an ESV compatible translation of all the significant variants in the Apocalypse with an apparatus, mostly[1] hijacked from LaParola. Far as I know Meanings and Manuscripts is still an incomplete project. Probably won't be published in my lifetime.

[1]I was also provided an enhanced PDF of Concerning the Text of the Apokalypse. by Hermann C. Hoskier.
C. Stirling Bartholomew

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