Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

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Barry Hofstetter
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Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

Post by Barry Hofstetter » December 12th, 2017, 10:55 am

The pope is unhappy with the Lord's prayer, and wants it to be read something to the effect of "Let us not fall into temptation."

Everybody happy with that? Here's the text:

καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.

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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

Post by Stephen Carlson » December 12th, 2017, 4:59 pm

Laudator Temporis Acti has a big quotation from Jeffrey B. Gibson on Ancient Unease with Lead Us Not Into Temptation.
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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Stirling Bartholomew
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Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

Post by Stirling Bartholomew » December 12th, 2017, 5:21 pm

Stephen Carlson wrote:
December 12th, 2017, 4:59 pm
Laudator Temporis Acti has a big quotation from Jeffrey B. Gibson on Ancient Unease with Lead Us Not Into Temptation.
Thanks for posting this. Those of us who've been around for a while recall Jeffrey B. Gibson doing a long series of research projects regarding historical and philological aspects of the Lord's Prayer. I particularly recall a long thread on πειρασμός. Not sure how we can discuss this without diving headlong into biblical theology.
Cf. Marcion's version of the Lord's prayer as reconstructed by Adolf von Harnack (Marcion. Das Evangelium vom fremden Gott. 2nd edition 1924, 207*): μὴ ἄφες ἡμᾶς εἰσενεχθῆναι εἰς πειρασμόν.

Harnack based his reconstruction on Tertullian adv. Marc. 4.26.5: quis non sinet nos deduci in temptationem? In Tertullian this is part of a highly rhetorical argument with a series of rhetorical questions. So we should not take his wording as representing Marcion's.
Ulrich Schmid12/08/2017 9:04 pm
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... is-on.html


I ran a search on this in TLG: εἰσενεχθῆναι εἰς πειρασμόν. That led me to the discussion on evangelicaltextualcriticism.
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Shirley Rollinson
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Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

Post by Shirley Rollinson » December 15th, 2017, 5:54 pm

Apparently the Greek Orthodox Church has also done a bit of re-writing :
"ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν"
(eg. at http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Lords_Prayer.html
(though the rest of the text follows Matthew rather than Luke)
Maybe they think it's best to say we're working on forgiving them, rather than that we've actually done so ? ;)
Shirley Rollinson
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RandallButh
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Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...

Post by RandallButh » December 16th, 2017, 6:50 am

Shirley, it's not a modern re-write but following the Byzantine text rather than the Alexandrian text.
N-A, of course, promulgates the Alexandrian text-type. Maurice Robinson, IIRC, thinks that the Alexandrian text type may have been an ancient scholarly edition to serve as the base for the Coptic translation(s).

In any case, the reading ἀφίεμεν predates the Orthodox Church and East-West split.

On meaning, the present tense can be understood distributively, that is, applying to many and whoever we need to forgive. The aorist may mimic the Hebrew performative, מחלנו "we hereby release/forgive."
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