The pope is unhappy with the Lord's prayer, and wants it to be read something to the effect of "Let us not fall into temptation."
Everybody happy with that? Here's the text:
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.
Comments?
Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
Forum rules
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
Please quote the Greek text you are discussing directly in your post if it is reasonably short - do not ask people to look it up. This is not a beginner's forum, competence in Greek is assumed.
-
- Posts: 2159
- Joined: May 6th, 2011, 1:48 pm
Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
N.E. Barry Hofstetter, M.A., Th.M.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
Ph.D. Student U of FL
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
καὶ σὺ τὸ σὸν ποιήσεις κἀγὼ τὸ ἐμόν. ἆρον τὸ σὸν καὶ ὕπαγε.
-
- Posts: 611
- Joined: June 2nd, 2011, 7:49 am
- Location: Finland
- Contact:
-
- Posts: 3351
- Joined: May 11th, 2011, 10:51 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Contact:
Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
Laudator Temporis Acti has a big quotation from Jeffrey B. Gibson on Ancient Unease with Lead Us Not Into Temptation.
Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
Melbourne, Australia
Melbourne, Australia
-
- Posts: 1141
- Joined: August 9th, 2012, 4:19 pm
Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
Thanks for posting this. Those of us who've been around for a while recall Jeffrey B. Gibson doing a long series of research projects regarding historical and philological aspects of the Lord's Prayer. I particularly recall a long thread on πειρασμός. Not sure how we can discuss this without diving headlong into biblical theology.Stephen Carlson wrote: ↑December 12th, 2017, 4:59 pm Laudator Temporis Acti has a big quotation from Jeffrey B. Gibson on Ancient Unease with Lead Us Not Into Temptation.
Cf. Marcion's version of the Lord's prayer as reconstructed by Adolf von Harnack (Marcion. Das Evangelium vom fremden Gott. 2nd edition 1924, 207*): μὴ ἄφες ἡμᾶς εἰσενεχθῆναι εἰς πειρασμόν.
Harnack based his reconstruction on Tertullian adv. Marc. 4.26.5: quis non sinet nos deduci in temptationem? In Tertullian this is part of a highly rhetorical argument with a series of rhetorical questions. So we should not take his wording as representing Marcion's.
Ulrich Schmid12/08/2017 9:04 pm
http://evangelicaltextualcriticism.blog ... is-on.html
I ran a search on this in TLG: εἰσενεχθῆναι εἰς πειρασμόν. That led me to the discussion on evangelicaltextualcriticism.
C. Stirling Bartholomew
-
- Posts: 415
- Joined: June 4th, 2011, 6:19 pm
- Location: New Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
Apparently the Greek Orthodox Church has also done a bit of re-writing :
"ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν"
(eg. at http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Lords_Prayer.html
(though the rest of the text follows Matthew rather than Luke)
Maybe they think it's best to say we're working on forgiving them, rather than that we've actually done so ?
Shirley Rollinson
"ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν"
(eg. at http://www.orthodoxprayer.org/Lords_Prayer.html
(though the rest of the text follows Matthew rather than Luke)
Maybe they think it's best to say we're working on forgiving them, rather than that we've actually done so ?
Shirley Rollinson
-
- Posts: 1105
- Joined: May 13th, 2011, 4:01 am
Re: Rewriting the Lord's prayer...
Shirley, it's not a modern re-write but following the Byzantine text rather than the Alexandrian text.
N-A, of course, promulgates the Alexandrian text-type. Maurice Robinson, IIRC, thinks that the Alexandrian text type may have been an ancient scholarly edition to serve as the base for the Coptic translation(s).
In any case, the reading ἀφίεμεν predates the Orthodox Church and East-West split.
On meaning, the present tense can be understood distributively, that is, applying to many and whoever we need to forgive. The aorist may mimic the Hebrew performative, מחלנו "we hereby release/forgive."
N-A, of course, promulgates the Alexandrian text-type. Maurice Robinson, IIRC, thinks that the Alexandrian text type may have been an ancient scholarly edition to serve as the base for the Coptic translation(s).
In any case, the reading ἀφίεμεν predates the Orthodox Church and East-West split.
On meaning, the present tense can be understood distributively, that is, applying to many and whoever we need to forgive. The aorist may mimic the Hebrew performative, מחלנו "we hereby release/forgive."