ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

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Jonathan Robie
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ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2018, 3:09 pm

Do you see significance in the choice of preposition for the phrases ζῶ ἐν πίστει and ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται? If so, why is each preposition more appropriate for the given phrase?

Rom.1.17 Ὁ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται.

Gal.2.20 ὃ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ζῶ ἐν πίστει τῇ τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.

Gal.3.11 Ὁ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται·

Heb.10.38 ὁ δίκαιός μου ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται,
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by MAubrey » January 4th, 2018, 5:17 pm

It sounds like what you want is to examine how these two prepositions would otherwise function with other objects when ζάω is the main verb.

Generally, these clauses are all translated poorly--punting to 'by' for everything isn't adequate and is really kind of lazy. The difficulty is that you have a non-motion verb that expresses a state with prepositional phrases with abstract objects. Find out how ζάω gets used with ἐκ & ἐν with objects that refer to physical entities and then extrapolate from there.
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2018, 6:11 pm

MAubrey wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 5:17 pm
It sounds like what you want is to examine how these two prepositions would otherwise function with other objects when ζάω is the main verb.

Generally, these clauses are all translated poorly--punting to 'by' for everything isn't adequate and is really kind of lazy. The difficulty is that you have a non-motion verb that expresses a state with prepositional phrases with abstract objects. Find out how ζάω gets used with ἐκ & ἐν with objects that refer to physical entities and then extrapolate from there.
Thanks for helping me think more clearly about this, that's a great idea.

Let me also mention how I got to this place. After SBL 2017, I felt I should go look at prepositional phrases surrounding πίστις, and particularly at the semantics of the verb and the preposition together. I'm afraid the corpus of the GNT is too small to be conclusive (I'm working on a larger corpus ...) but each preposition is generally used with certain verbs. I don't think these numbers are 100% accurate, but they are probably somewhat close to accurate:

Code: Select all

ἀπό

    ἀποπλανάω 1
    διαστρέφω 1

διά

    καταγωνίζομαι 1
    καταργέω 1
    κατοικέω 1
    κληρονομέω 1
    λαμβάνω 1
    μαρτυρέω 1
    περιπατέω 1
    σοφίζω 1
    φρουρέω 1

εἰς

    γνωρίζω 1
    λαμβάνω 1

ἐκ

    ἀπεκδέχομαι 1
    δίδωμι 1
    δικαιόω 5
    ζάω 3

ἐν

    αἰτέω 1
    ζάω 1
    μένω 1
    προσέρχομαι 1
    στήκω 1
    ὑγιαίνω 1
    φιλέω 1

κατά

    ἀποθνῄσκω 1

περί

    ἀστοχέω 1
    ναυαγέω 1
With πίστις, the only verbs I saw used with two different prepositions were λαμβάνω and ζάω. With λαμβάνω, it's pretty obvious how these two sentences differ in meaning, and it just makes sense:

Rom.1.5!1 δι’ οὗ ἐλάβομεν χάριν καὶ ἀποστολὴν εἰς ὑπακοὴν πίστεως ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ὑπὲρ τοῦ ὀνόματος αὐτοῦ,

Gal.3.14!14 τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν τοῦ Πνεύματος λάβωμεν διὰ τῆς πίστεως.


But I should probably generalize your advice to other verbs as well ...
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Jonathan Robie » January 4th, 2018, 6:43 pm

Hmmm, interesting. Here's what I saw when I followed Mike's advice. The preposition seems strongly constrained by both the verb and the noun, I suppose that's not too surprising. Anyone want to help me understand the color of the various prepositions in these verses?

ζάω ἐπί μετά ἀπό εἰς διά κατά ἐκ ἐν χωρίς σύν

Matt.4.4!7 ἐπ’ ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος,

Luke.2.36!15 ζήσασα μετὰ ἀνδρὸς ἔτη ἑπτὰ ἀπὸ τῆς παρθενίας αὐτῆς,

Luke.2.36!15 ζήσασα μετὰ ἀνδρὸς ἔτη ἑπτὰ ἀπὸ τῆς παρθενίας αὐτῆς,

Luke.4.4!9 Οὐκ ἐπ’ ἄρτῳ μόνῳ ζήσεται ὁ ἄνθρωπος.

John.6.51!19 ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα·

John.6.57!7 κἀγὼ ζῶ διὰ τὸν Πατέρα,

John.6.57!16 κἀκεῖνος ζήσει δι’ ἐμέ.

John.6.58!16 ὁ τρώγων τοῦτον τὸν ἄρτον ζήσει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

Acts.26.5!8 κατὰ τὴν ἀκριβεστάτην αἵρεσιν τῆς ἡμετέρας θρησκείας ἔζησα Φαρισαῖος.

Rom.1.17!13 Ὁ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται.

Rom.6.2!3 οἵτινες ἀπεθάνομεν τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ, πῶς ἔτι ζήσομεν ἐν αὐτῇ;

Rom.6.13!16 ἐκ νεκρῶν ζῶντας

Rom.7.9!1 ἐγὼ ἔζων χωρὶς νόμου ποτέ·

Rom.8.12!10 κατὰ σάρκα ζῆν.

Rom.8.13!3 κατὰ σάρκα ζῆτε,

Rom.10.5!10 ὁ ποιήσας ἄνθρωπος ζήσεται ἐν αὐτῇ.

1Cor.9.14!10 ἐκ τοῦ εὐαγγελίου ζῆν·

2Cor.13.4!7 ζῇ ἐκ δυνάμεως Θεοῦ.

2Cor.13.4!18 ζήσομεν σὺν αὐτῷ ἐκ δυνάμεως Θεοῦ εἰς ὑμᾶς.

2Cor.13.4!18 ζήσομεν σὺν αὐτῷ ἐκ δυνάμεως Θεοῦ εἰς ὑμᾶς.

2Cor.13.4!18 ζήσομεν σὺν αὐτῷ ἐκ δυνάμεως Θεοῦ εἰς ὑμᾶς.

Gal.2.20!5 ζῇ ἐν ἐμοὶ Χριστός·

Gal.2.20!10 ὃ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί,

Gal.2.20!10 ὃ νῦν ζῶ ἐν σαρκί, ζῶ ἐν πίστει τῇ τοῦ Υἱοῦ τοῦ Θεοῦ τοῦ ἀγαπήσαντός με καὶ παραδόντος ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἐμοῦ.

Gal.3.11!12 Ὁ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται·

Gal.3.12!9 Ὁ ποιήσας αὐτὰ ζήσεται ἐν αὐτοῖς.

Phil.1.22!4 ζῆν ἐν σαρκί,

Col.2.20!12 ζῶντες ἐν κόσμῳ

Col.3.7!8 ἐζῆτε ἐν τούτοις·

1Thess.5.10!10 ἅμα σὺν αὐτῷ ζήσωμεν.

2Tim.3.12!6 ζῆν εὐσεβῶς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ

Titus.2.12!4 ἀρνησάμενοι τὴν ἀσέβειαν καὶ τὰς κοσμικὰς ἐπιθυμίας σωφρόνως καὶ δικαίως καὶ εὐσεβῶς ζήσωμεν ἐν τῷ νῦν αἰῶνι, προσδεχόμενοι τὴν μακαρίαν ἐλπίδα καὶ ἐπιφάνειαν τῆς δόξης τοῦ μεγάλου Θεοῦ καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ, ὃς ἔδωκεν ἑαυτὸν ὑπὲρ ἡμῶν ἵνα λυτρώσηται ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ πάσης ἀνομίας καὶ καθαρίσῃ ἑαυτῷ λαὸν περιούσιον, ζηλωτὴν καλῶν ἔργων.

Heb.7.25!14 πάντοτε ζῶν εἰς τὸ ἐντυγχάνειν ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν.

Heb.10.38!1 ὁ δίκαιός μου ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται,

1Pet.4.6!13 ζῶσι κατὰ Θεὸν πνεύματι.

1John.4.9!23 ζήσωμεν δι’ αὐτοῦ.

Rev.4.9!17 ζῶντι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων,

Rev.4.10!15 ζῶντι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων,

Rev.10.6!5 ζῶντι εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων,

Rev.15.7!20 ζῶντος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων.
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by daveburt » January 4th, 2018, 6:48 pm

One reason for the word choice will be quotation: at least three of those verses seem to be quoting the Habbakuk 2:4b from the LXX:
ὁ δὲ δίκαιος ἐκ πίστεώς μου ζήσεται.
(Credit: I think I got this from Devotions on the Greek New Testament edited by J. Scott Duvall , Verlyn Verbrugge)
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 4th, 2018, 10:13 pm

Several things are suggested here.

1) Prepositions don't easily map from one language to another, in what one would expect from having learned the initial glosses at the beginning level. We were just discussing this in our Latin 4 lit class the other day.

2) Individual authors might use different prepositions to express what seem to us to mean the same thing. Synoptic comparisons might be interesting here. However, the contexts must be parallel for it to be meaningful. What you seem to have done, Jonathan, it to simply seen all the prepositional phrases used with ζάω. Most of the contexts call for radically different prepositional phrases. What you want are contexts which actually use ἐκ and ἐν.

Here is one example. In Matthew, Jesus walks

ἐπὶ τὴν θάλασσαν, but in Mark, he walks

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης.

Same preposition, but Matthew uses the accusative case while Mark uses the genitive. Difference in meaning? I don't think so here -- it's simply that each author has a slightly different sense of how the preposition is used, but context makes it clear that both usages mean the same thing. Does that mean ἐκ and ἐν are the same? I don't think so. ἐκ is often used of giving reason, cause or justification. ἐν may be used of giving the basis or foundation... My point here is that hyper attention must be given to the context to see precisely how the author is using the preposition that he does.
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Stephen Carlson » January 5th, 2018, 8:08 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Difference in meaning? I don't think so here -- it's simply that each author has a slightly different sense of how the preposition is used, but context makes it clear that both usages mean the same thing.
This strikes me as self-contradictory. If there’s a different sense, of course there’s a different meaning, viz. the different sense. I can’t see how one can deny on the one hand a difference in meaning but admit on the other a different sense, even if slightly.

Something’s going on. I think it’s related to the objection of the common sense heuristic “choice implies meaning,” but I can’t fathom the benefit of claiming things are synonymous when they are not.
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Shirley Rollinson » January 5th, 2018, 8:55 pm

Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Several things are suggested here.

1) Prepositions don't easily map from one language to another, in what one would expect from having learned the initial glosses at the beginning level. We were just discussing this in our Latin 4 lit class the other day.

2) Individual authors might use different prepositions to express what seem to us to mean the same thing. Synoptic comparisons might be interesting here. However, the contexts must be parallel for it to be meaningful. What you seem to have done, Jonathan, it to simply seen all the prepositional phrases used with ζάω. Most of the contexts call for radically different prepositional phrases. What you want are contexts which actually use ἐκ and ἐν.

Here is one example. In Matthew, Jesus walks

ἐπὶ τὴν θάλασσαν, but in Mark, he walks

ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης.

Same preposition, but Matthew uses the accusative case while Mark uses the genitive. Difference in meaning? I don't think so here -- it's simply that each author has a slightly different sense of how the preposition is used, but context makes it clear that both usages mean the same thing. Does that mean ἐκ and ἐν are the same? I don't think so. ἐκ is often used of giving reason, cause or justification. ἐν may be used of giving the basis or foundation... My point here is that hyper attention must be given to the context to see precisely how the author is using the preposition that he does.
In Matthew 14:25 Jesus walks ἐπὶ τὴν θάλασσαν - but in the next verse the disciples see him walking ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης - could it be that in the first instance the thought is that he is walking 'towards' them - hence Accusative?
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 6th, 2018, 9:33 am

Stephen Carlson wrote:
January 5th, 2018, 8:08 pm
Barry Hofstetter wrote:
January 4th, 2018, 10:13 pm
Difference in meaning? I don't think so here -- it's simply that each author has a slightly different sense of how the preposition is used, but context makes it clear that both usages mean the same thing.
This strikes me as self-contradictory. If there’s a different sense, of course there’s a different meaning, viz. the different sense. I can’t see how one can deny on the one hand a difference in meaning but admit on the other a different sense, even if slightly.

Something’s going on. I think it’s related to the objection of the common sense heuristic “choice implies meaning,” but I can’t fathom the benefit of claiming things are synonymous when they are not.
My mother always warned me to beware of linguists... :)

However, I was using "sense" not in the the technical sense implying a difference in meaning or nuance, but simply as a different "feel" for the preposition and how it's used. Context demonstrates that exactly the same thing is going on. If I say "Jesus was walking on the water" and somebody else says "Jesus was walking on top of the water" how much difference is there?

Another example: what does ὁ θεός, articular mean in the NT? With a few notable exceptions forced by context, it refers to the one true God (it would mean something quite different if the author were writing about the oracle at Delphi). But Ignatius consistently in his epistles frequently uses the anarthrous θεός to mean the same thing. Back when I was reading linguistics, I remember the term "idiolect" used to describe how individual speakers and authors handle the language. Is that a helpful term for this discussion?
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Re: ζῶ ἐν πίστει, ἐκ πίστεως ζήσεται

Post by Barry Hofstetter » January 6th, 2018, 9:43 am

Shirley Rollinson wrote:
January 5th, 2018, 8:55 pm
In Matthew 14:25 Jesus walks ἐπὶ τὴν θάλασσαν - but in the next verse the disciples see him walking ἐπὶ τῆς θαλάσσης - could it be that in the first instance the thought is that he is walking 'towards' them - hence Accusative?
If the object of the preposition is θάλασσαν, he would be walking toward the sea. That's an even better example, though. What's the real difference between the accusative and the genitive here? I'm arguing that it's not substantive in this context, see my earlier English example above, "on" and "on top of."
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