1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

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Jonathan Robie
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1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 10th, 2018, 4:07 pm

1 Tim 5:17 wrote:Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι Οἱ καλῶς προεστῶτες πρεσβύτεροι διπλῆς τιμῆς ἀξιούσθωσαν, μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ· ἀξιούσθωσαν, μάλιστα οἱ κοπιῶντες ἐν λόγῳ καὶ διδασκαλίᾳ·
In context, τιμή seems to imply financial support as part of honoring them, especially when the earlier part about widows is taken into consideration.

The connection between honor and finances is also clear in Mark 7:9-13 (and some other passages):
Mark 7:9-13 wrote:Καὶ ἔλεγεν αὐτοῖς· Καλῶς ἀθετεῖτε τὴν ἐντολὴν τοῦ θεοῦ, ἵνα τὴν παράδοσιν ὑμῶν τηρήσητε· Μωϋσῆς γὰρ εἶπεν· Τίμα τὸν πατέρα σου καὶ τὴν μητέρα σου, καί· Ὁ κακολογῶν πατέρα ἢ μητέρα θανάτῳ τελευτάτω· ὑμεῖς δὲ λέγετε· Ἐὰν εἴπῃ ἄνθρωπος τῷ πατρὶ ἢ τῇ μητρί· Κορβᾶν, ὅ ἐστιν Δῶρον, ὃ ἐὰν ἐξ ἐμοῦ ὠφεληθῇς, οὐκέτι ἀφίετε αὐτὸν οὐδὲν ποιῆσαι τῷ πατρὶ ἢ τῇ μητρί, ἀκυροῦντες τὸν λόγον τοῦ θεοῦ τῇ παραδόσει ὑμῶν ᾗ παρεδώκατε· καὶ παρόμοια τοιαῦτα πολλὰ ποιεῖτε.
In Plato's Protagorus (314) it seems to refer to the price of a lesson in this lovely quote (which is well worth reading more than once!):
Protagorus (314) wrote:μαθήματα δὲ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐν ἄλλῳ ἀγγείῳ ἀπενεγκεῖν, ἀλλʼ ἀνάγκη καταθέντα τὴν τιμὴν τὸ μάθημα ἐν αὐτῇ τῇ ψυχῇ λαβόντα καὶ μαθόντα ἀπιέναι ἢ βεβλαμμένον ἢ ὠφελημένον.
Perhaps that's a concept related to our 'honorarium'? In the Scaife Viewer, the Word List gives this interesting definition:
τιμή that which is paid in token of worth
Which brings me to διπλῆς τιμῆς ... how should I understand that phrase? Are there any particularly good articles that I should look at? Or other quotes from the classical literature or other sources that are particularly helpful?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » July 10th, 2018, 6:55 pm

I've always taken it as both kinds of τιμη – honor and remuneration.
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Jonathan Robie
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Jonathan Robie » July 11th, 2018, 8:30 am

timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 6:55 pm
I've always taken it as both kinds of τιμη – honor and remuneration.
As opposed to twice the remuneration?
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ἐξίσταντο δὲ πάντες καὶ διηποροῦντο, ἄλλος πρὸς ἄλλον λέγοντες, τί θέλει τοῦτο εἶναι;
http://jonathanrobie.biblicalhumanities.org/

Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Barry Hofstetter » July 11th, 2018, 12:30 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 8:30 am
timothy_p_mcmahon wrote:
July 10th, 2018, 6:55 pm
I've always taken it as both kinds of τιμη – honor and remuneration.
As opposed to twice the remuneration?
I've always taken it in that sense, twice the remuneration, but Timothy's suggestion is intriguing.
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
Instructor of Latin
Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » July 11th, 2018, 4:45 pm

Jonathan Robie wrote:
July 11th, 2018, 8:30 am
As opposed to twice the remuneration?
Yes.
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Scott Lawson
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Scott Lawson » October 1st, 2018, 9:11 am

Why not a twin amount for the honor earned as per Meredith Kline?

https://meredithkline.com/klines-works/ ... e-trouble/
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Scott Lawson

Scott Lawson
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Scott Lawson » October 1st, 2018, 9:20 am

Or Is there a connection with this rabbinic idea and Jesus’ comment at Matt 23:15?

After his apostasy, Aher asked R. Meir [a question], saying to him: What is the meaning of the verse: God hath made even the one as ivell as the other? He replied: It means that for everything that God created He created [also] its counterpart. He created mountains, and created hills; He created seas, and created rivers. Said [Aher] to Him: R. Akiba, thy master, did not explain it thus, but [as follows]: He created righteous, and created wicked; He created the Garden of Eden, and created Gehinnom. Everyone has two portions, one in the Garden of Eden and one in Gehinnom. The righteous man, being meritorious, takes his own portion and his fellow's portion in the Garden of Eden. The wicked man, being guilty, takes his own portion and his fellow's portion in Gehinnom. R. Mesharsheya said: What is the Biblical proof for this? In the case of the righteous, it is written: Therefore in their land they shall possess double. In the case of the wicked it is written: And destroy them with double destruction. 55 Two Powers, Segal pg 22

Matt 23:15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.
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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Barry Hofstetter » October 1st, 2018, 10:27 am

Always tempting to make such connections, especially for preaching purposes, but the idea of double is perhaps simply a common idea in many cultures:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeEX3Cn8NgU
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N.E. Barry Hofstetter
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Jack M. Barrack Hebrew Academy
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Scott Lawson
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Re: 1 Tim 5:17 διπλῆς τιμῆς

Post by Scott Lawson » October 1st, 2018, 10:46 am

Barry interestingly the Doublemint gum commercial doesn’t mean that you actually will have double the pleasure. It’s hyperbole.
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Scott Lawson

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