Heb. 2:17

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tverenna
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Heb. 2:17

Post by tverenna » July 20th, 2011, 11:34 am

Hello,

My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου

The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):

ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός

And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·

I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
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cwconrad
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by cwconrad » July 20th, 2011, 1:40 pm

tverenna wrote:Hello,

My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου

The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):

ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?
tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·

I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

tverenna
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Joined: July 20th, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by tverenna » July 20th, 2011, 1:47 pm

cwconrad wrote:
tverenna wrote:Hello,

My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου

The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):

ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?
As far as I can tell, yes.
cwconrad wrote:
tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·

I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.
Could you explain?
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tverenna
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by tverenna » July 20th, 2011, 1:49 pm

Here is the text from the Westcott-Hort, if that helps:
ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα “τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς” ὁμοιωθῆναι, ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεόν, εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ:
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Stephen Carlson
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by Stephen Carlson » July 20th, 2011, 2:39 pm

cwconrad wrote:
tverenna wrote: The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):

ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?
If I had to guess, the text was copied and pasted from a morphologically tagged version in which all the lexical forms came over instead of the inflected forms.

Stephen
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Stephen C. Carlson, Ph.D.
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cwconrad
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by cwconrad » July 20th, 2011, 2:57 pm

tverenna wrote:
cwconrad wrote:
tverenna wrote:Hello,

My question is about Heb. 2:17. The longest form of the verse that I’ve seen in Greek is:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοις αδελφοις ομοιωθηναι ινα ελεημων γενηται και πιστος αρχιερευς τα προς τον θεον εις το ιλασκεσθαι τας αμαρτιας του λαου

The shorter variant (Tischendorf 8th ed. w/Diacritics):

ὅθεν ὀφείλω κατά πᾶς ὁ ἀδελφός ὁμοιόω ἵνα ἐλεήμων γίνομαι καί πιστός ἀρχιερεύς ὁ πρός ὁ θεός εἰς ὁ ἱλάσκομαι ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός
As it stands, this makes no sense whatsoever: (a) the first-person verb-forms don't really make sense; (b) the sequence κατά πᾶς doesn't work -- there's no object of κατά, which shouldn't be accented that way at all unless followed by an enclitic; (c) the indicative γίνομαι after ἵνα isn't unheard of, but it's odd; (d) the nominative forms ὁ θεός, ὁ ἁμαρτία ὁ λαός can't construe respectively with the preposition πρὸς or the preposition εἰς. In fact, ὁ ἁμαρτία is an anomaly: masculine article with a feminine noun. Are you sure you're quoting this correctly?
As far as I can tell, yes.
Perhaps Stephen Carlson's guess is right about this.
cwconrad wrote:
tverenna wrote:And according to the Greek from the Codex Sinaiticus:

οθεν ωφειλεν κατα παντα τοιϲ αδελφοιϲ ομοιωθηναι ϊνα ελεημων γενηται και πιϲτοϲ αρχιερευϲ τα προϲ τον θν ειϲ το ϊλαϲκεϲθαι ταϲ αμαρτιαϲ του λαου ·

I am wondering if the way this verse is structured, if the phrase κατα παντα might not be strengthening the verb οφειλω rather than ομοιοω?
In my opinion κατὰ πάντα can only be construed with τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, not with ὤφειλεν.

Could you explain?
Well, as I see it, κατὰ πάντα means "in every respect" or "on all counts," or "completely." I think "be like his brothers in every respect" makes sense, but "in every sense must" doesn't make much sense.
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

tverenna
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Joined: July 20th, 2011, 11:29 am

Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by tverenna » July 20th, 2011, 4:15 pm

My rendering would be more akin to: 'Where he was obligated, in accordance with all things, he was made…" It just appears to me that the Greek works grammatically, but I agree the context is off and it would be on me to show that such a use appears in other texts. There is a mention in 1 Clement with a very similar phrasing 'opheilomen kata panta eucharistein autôi', but the context is different. Stephen mentioned the possibility of it being something of an intensifier if it was assumed that it could be read in the proposed manner, but I imagine it is still a stretch.

Thanks for your help.
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timothy_p_mcmahon
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by timothy_p_mcmahon » July 20th, 2011, 11:41 pm

I don't have the text of Clement in front of me (could you provide a citation?) but wouldn't the snippet you quoted mean 'we ought to give thanks to him in every respect' rather than 'we ought in every respect to give thanks to him' and thus correspond to the standard rendering of Hebrews 2:17 rather than to your proposed rendering?
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cwconrad
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Re: Heb. 2:17

Post by cwconrad » July 21st, 2011, 8:44 am

tverenna wrote:My rendering would be more akin to: 'Where he was obligated, in accordance with all things, he was made…" It just appears to me that the Greek works grammatically, but I agree the context is off and it would be on me to show that such a use appears in other texts. There is a mention in 1 Clement with a very similar phrasing 'opheilomen kata panta eucharistein autôi', but the context is different. Stephen mentioned the possibility of it being something of an intensifier if it was assumed that it could be read in the proposed manner, but I imagine it is still a stretch..
The text again (NA27): Heb. 2:17 ὅθεν ὤφειλεν κατὰ πάντα τοῖς ἀδελφοῖς ὁμοιωθῆναι, ἵνα ἐλεήμων γένηται καὶ πιστὸς ἀρχιερεὺς τὰ πρὸς τὸν θεὸν εἰς τὸ ἱλάσκεσθαι τὰς ἁμαρτίας τοῦ λαοῦ.

I am still at a loss as to how you're understanding κατὰ πάντα as construing with ὤφειλεν. Is there any way that an obligation can be partial or less than total?
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οὔτοι ἀπ’ ἀρχῆς πάντα θεοὶ θνητοῖς ὑπέδειξαν,
ἀλλὰ χρόνῳ ζητέοντες ἐφευρίσκουσιν ἄμεινον. (Xenophanes, Fragment 16)

Carl W. Conrad
Department of Classics, Washington University (Retired)

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